Pot and crack are two opposite ends of the drug spectrum. Crack happened in the 80's. That would have a lot more to do with violent crime of that time period. Then, there'll be this to contend with in a few years time and the problem won't be coming from the bottom of the spectrum: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012...717?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&rpc=76
The wrong way to react and he should be brought up on charges of Second Degree Attempted Murder. Self defense and defense of others ends when there is not a reasonable threat to life, in this case the second they turned and started running out the door.
I have mixed feelings. I think the second someone pulls out a gun in a crime and uses it in a threatening way, it's pretty much fair game to shoot them but once they are no longer a clear threat the person needs to stop. Thing is how do you know when they are officially no longer a threat? They could have run to a better position and started firing back. In this case you only know the threat is over when they have left the building. Granted, you can't shoot someone in the back who is running away and claim it was self defense.... meh.
Point a gun at me and a bunch of people around me and demand money? fuck yeah I'll blow you away. Someone with the balls to CC (and use it) would have been able to save p to14 lives in Aurora last night.
This. Hell, any serious physical threat to me at all: a knife, a bat, more than one assailant... I call fair game on shooting any and all of the above. Damn straight.
Correct, it wouldn't, unless such person was in an extremely lucky position. I think as long as those robbers were trying to run away they shoulda been fair game. If they had submitted and yielded and the guy kept shooting, that would be different. (NOTE: Prolly been watching too many Game of Thrones re-runs lately)
Wasn't the guy wearing body armor and a ballistic helmet? I thought I read that somewhere. Not easy to take someone like that down with a pistol, unless you are a hell of a shot.
The gas mask has a fatal flaw.......BOOM headshot! and then again, there are kneecaps, legs, feet that, when hit, will make it really hard to take other people out from the floor.
Changed my mind, going to put it in here as I don't want the other thread to devolve into a guns debate. Wiskas, his first initial round of indiscriminate firing would have resulted in several deaths from the onset. Add in the chaos of a darkened movie theatre and hundreds of people suddenly panicking and even a competent shooter would have had a hard time getting an even close to accurate shot off. The first 911 calls weren't made for several minutes as police responders were on scene 90 seconds after the first call and were in the theatre 7 minutes after the shooting began. Police didn't even enter Columbine until over 30 minutes after _arriving_ on scene. I might check in later but I'm getting nauseous again talking about this.
I seriously hope you are put in several self defense situations in the near future. Maybe then you would have some perspective. Bringing charges on this man for second degree attempted murder is ludicrous. I suppose men running in with guns robbing the place isn't enough to ID the bad guys. If you want to be a helpless victim by all means, but don't deprive others of the right to keep themselves safe. You need a good old fashion ass whooping from some thugs to get the blinders off, we don't live in a perfect society.
Wishing for violence against me to "remove my blinders" isn't going to change my mind or legal matters. I'l state again, your right to self-defense and defense of others ends when your or others' lives are no longer threatened. The law in almost every state save for maybe Florida, Texas and others with incredibly gun friendly / anti-bad guy laws agrees with this. If the two robbers shot at or continued assaulting people, then by all means the old man should have at it. However, he pulled and started firing; they responded by tucking tail and running, thus no longer a threat.
Sorry, but no way. They came in waving their guns in everyone's faces. That alone right there is enough reason to blow their domes off, even if they are running out the door. You don't get to put a gun in someone's face, and then when you find out that the other person has a gun too, say "oh, well sorry, didn't expect you to be armed, I guess I'm done here" and walk away. As long as those 2 robbers were still in the general vicinity of that area, they were a threat.
I think once some adrenaline gets thrown into the mix it's a pretty tough situation to make calls on from the outside. I don't think you can just neatly wrap it up like that. He chased them out of the building, which seems completely coherent to me. They may have just holed up behind the counter had he not chased them out. They may have shot him immediately if he threatened them with a gun. It's a situation with a lot of possible outcomes, and not a lot of time to think. But getting distance between you and two people threatening you with weapons should be main priority, no? I think he did a fine job of that.
I'm not arguing with shmersh, I'm just stating that things would have been different had this happened in Texas or any "others with incredibly gun friendly / anti-bad guy laws". Sometimes doing nothing is the wrong thing to do.
WTF? You act like you had a loved one die in the theater shooting or something. Sure it isn't morning sickness?
QFT I still carry at least one handgun most everywhere I go. I swear that if someone were to threaten me or my family, they would quickly rethink their decisions. In fact, I can't promise that they would have the opportunity to make those decisions again later in life. If someone threatens me, they would more than likely threaten someone else. I am not going to give them the opportunity to threaten the life of someone else's child, or wife. I might wind up in jail/prison someday over my beliefs if i am presented with such a situation, but I promise that the world would be a better place without them. ~Will Courtier~
I honestly don't want anything bad to happen to you, but your talking like someone that's never had to defend themselves in any real way. You keep repeating the self defense rule of thumb, which i don't disagree with. The fact is even if the criminals were running away how do you know the threat is over ? Who are you to determine when the threat is over ? Threat is over when the person trying to harm you can no longer harm you. If their is a doubt i say you have a right to keep protecting yourself.
^^^ No shit. I've seen way too many new stories where perps will temporarily retreat and then come in and start shooting.
I like to remember the deadly force triangle. When defending yourself, you need to identify three things with a perpetrator; opportunity, ability, and intent. Opportunity is proof that the person has nothing stopping them in harming you. Next, ability is provided by them having the knowledge and tools to harm or kill you. Finally, intent is the one item that is never black and white. Intent can be shown simply enough by the perpetrator's eyes being shifty. It could be shown by the perpetrator saying he is going to harm someone. It could even be shown by a perpetrator raising their eyebrows and tightening the muscles in their face. Intent is the one side of deadly force that is always argued. But, you can never question a person that is placed into a situation where they might be killed or injured. When all three points are met, it is up to the person utilizing deadly force to determine when any one of the three things listed above are no longer met. That's why the military trains us time and time again so that when we have to use deadly force, they know we were acting within reason. It is my belief that every citizen is allowed to make these decisions, and when they are forced to they must be able to defend their decisions in a court of law if required. I promise you that if I were forced to make such a decision, I wouldn't mind being in jail/prison (if it came down to that), as long as my family were safe and the perpetrator wasn't able to harm anyone else. ~Will Courtier~
