Yeah another torture thread!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by ivwshane, May 18, 2009.

  1. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    There is a difference between incidents of torture happening by a select few done on their own accord and torture being advocated by the office of the president!!

    Just because we might have tortured in the past doesn't mean it's ok to do it now.

    It's a matter of principals and America either has them or they don't. The whole reason we have been able to play the role of "police" for the entire world is because of those principals. Once we lose our moral high ground we have no right to police the world, we have no right to meddle in other countries business and we have no right to declare a war on terrorism outside our boarders.

    It's that simple, torture is unamerican.
  2. Tacdriver

    Tacdriver Junior Member

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    Well then releasing more photos of that select few who are already serving time does no service to anyone. So everyone can shut up about it then.....good. No more pics of the chick pointing at the naked terrorist

    But no one is even talking about the past....at all. Everyone is all of a sudden on the bandwagon because it happened under the Bush administration......plain and simple.

    I'm actually all for that. Relocate The U.N. to Sweden and, we wont have to be the world police anymore. Beautiful, I love the idea. By the way it wasn't because of our principles that we intervened throughout the world on behalf of The U.N......it was our superior military and resources. Let's get that straight.

    Torture isn't used to be patriotic. It's used to save lives. Releasing photos that could harm our troops or cause a new uprising is "Unamerican." Nancy Pelosi lying about The CIA for everyone in the world to hear is "Unamerican." Taking a tool or a method away form our government that has proved to save lives....is "Unamerican." If slicing, electrifying, starving, sleep depriving, burning or, breaking bones of somebody saves an American life during a time of war or, prevents an all out attack NOT during time of war......sobeit.
  3. ivanolo

    ivanolo Guest

    Where's the proof that it saves lives? All I have seen is a bunch of people of dubious reputation saying it does. Where's the conclusive proof?
  4. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Another Democrat Says CIA Records On Briefings Were Not Accurate

    Boehner admits CIA has lied to Congress - Daily Kos TV (beta)

    'Enhanced interrogations' don't work, ex-FBI agent tells panel - CNN.com

    Please go to that youtube page and see all the related videos:
    YouTube - Soufan 1/6: The New Techniques Did NOT Produce Results Abu Zubaydah SHUT DOWN & STOPPED TALKING!

    Unresolved Debate: Does Torture Work?


    Here is a little something extra:
    YouTube - Military attorney: Waterboarding is tip of the iceberg
  5. ninefivezero

    ninefivezero infinite resolution

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    To those who support torture:

    Lets say I'm an Iraqi and I want America to stop killing my countrymen.

    So I take American soldiers, lock them away with no rights, isolate them from everyone and everything they know, blast loud noises, put pour water on them and leave them in cold rooms, make they stay awake for up to 10 days, put them in stress positions for days at at time, slap them, hit them against walls, and finally water board them.

    I mean, I'm just trying to get information out of those people about the next attack on my fellow Iraqi people, those damn Americans are killing us! It's justified.

    Your cool with that, right?
  6. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Their response would be that they have done much worse than that to us (beheading's and such). It's the eye for an eye argument.

    Interestingly enough, I looked up that saying to find it's origin, not only is it mentioned in the bible (which I figured it was) but what I found even more interesting is the complete passage itself:

    Matthew 5:38
  7. Coleman

    Coleman fresh off the corner

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    Those other wars didn't just happen and a lot of the guys involved with them aren't alive anymore. I could care less if Bush was in office when it happened or not. I think I'd be more upset if it had been Gore in office because I never would have seen that coming.

    Also, I'd like to think that humanities goal, as a whole, is to improve the world into a place where we don't need to torture someone. :420:
  8. ivanolo

    ivanolo Guest

  9. hans5849

    hans5849 Serious as a heart attack

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    Watch the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode "The Gang Solves the Gas Crisis". At one point Frank is waterboarding Sweet Dee in a urinal. Frank says "You bet it works, I got Dee to admit stuff she never did."

    This is the truth of torture people will admit to anything to make it stop.
  10. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    War sux, torture sux, mean people sux, immoral, unprincipaled people/institutions sux....OK? Who the heck said this issue is an all or nothing issue? seems there are those who think if you do not totslly agree with their stance on this torture issue, then you are pro torture. That's narrow. and to claim that the USA is heald to higher standards....BS! This country only puts forth the appearance of high standards...read the news and tell me this country has morals. That's all i was trying to bring out, not that torture is OK. Quote the bible all you can. Unless thiose words are put into action, they are just that.....words.
  11. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    That very well may be true but that just means that we have to show our outrage, otherwise we are basically, as a nation, condoning such behavior. If those that are in power want to commit atrocities that America has condemned then they had better cover it up well enough that it never gets out, not even a peep. Unfortunately that's not what happened and now we must show our outrage (manufactured or not).
  12. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    So we keep putting forth the "appearance". It's not a secret that the USA is a hypocritical nation. we say one thing and do another. That is part of the beef other countries have with us. That and we may as well be Ferengii.
    We gotta walk our talk before any credence is ever going to be given to what we say. Say wghat we mean and mean what we say. "appearances" don't cut it.
  13. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Ok then! Now you understand our outrage;)
  14. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    That has outraged me since I was a tike. Main reason I do not subscribe to modern relligeon. A lie is a lie, words in place of actions are lies, half truths are lies.
    (speaking metaphorically, not to anyone in particular)
    Can anyone see where this all fits in with what i've been ranting about for the last 6 years? if you are going to "torture" then call a spade a spade and fess up. If you (speaking metaphorically, not to anyone in particular) are going to claim to be a bastian of virtue, then walk the talk. This biz of keeping up "appearances" rather than actually possesing the cleanliness that is proffessed, is a habit that has permiated our culture in almost every aspect. There are those of us living smack dab in the middle of this hypocracy that are outraged also. Some of us speak out against it, others just blindly and apathetically accept things as the way things are and cannot change. I take alot of ridicule for my vision of what is wrong, only to be vindicated to some extent later. That's Ok, I got ridiculed in Kindergarten too......when I told kids there couldn't be a santa claus because that shit was imposible. We have all been lied to and, until we open our eyes and call a spade a spade, we will continue to.
  15. Tacdriver

    Tacdriver Junior Member

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    I think I finally cry "Uncle." Shane, you seem to hate America as of late as some others. I'm done arguing with the likes of people like you.

    When I say "Hate America" I mean you want nothing but to ridicule it, find a flaw, and I'm guessing hope for some sort of "One World Rule."

    I really have nothing further other than good luck to all of us if we could miraculously change everything to your mindset.

    You just wait. The more this country diverts from it's strengths that we had back during WWII and bends to your mindset..........I hope .......nevermind. It doesn't matter. My family and I will be safe.
  16. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    As will mine. Safe and armed to the hilt. Ranger is probably more qualified than anyone here to have and opinion as he was actually face to face, on location, with the enemy not long ago.
    There is a better course of action than speaking and writing about political issues. A course that gets better and more results. It's known of as actually getting out and doing something about it. Being activist, not just talk. To those that badmouth America: (both foriegn and domestic) What are you doing to make the world a better place?
  17. bbsmitz

    bbsmitz Optimus Prime

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    Um... whiskas, to shift the topic slightly. Why exactly are the Iraqi's 'the enemy' as you so directly put it?

    And to be honest, for me, a citizen, what better course of action is there than writing and speaking about political issues? It is in these debates that the policy which is then implemented is decided. You fail to distinguish between types of action, and the various arenas in which those actions are legitimate.

    In some regards, for instance by working hard, I can help American industry and make a positive difference for America as a whole. This is the type of 'action' you refer to, and I agree, it has its (very important) place. However, there is nothing I can do to change some respects of US policy that I disagree other than to say that they should be changed. If enough people agree with me, then those changes become implemented. When it comes to policy, criticsm (or defense) of it is the pertinent action, since policy lays down the guidlines by which other actions follow. If we are to act wisely, we must make sure that those actions which you referred to above as 'going out and doing something' follow from policies that are carefully measured. And we can only ensure that through debate.

    I agree with your statement in that it seems that these days too many people talk, and fewer and fewer people seem to value hard work; but I don't think it should follow from that that criticsm of the government should be dismissed as being a hollow action. Rather, we should perhaps lend it less weight than we currently do, but never forget how crucial it is.
  18. ninefivezero

    ninefivezero infinite resolution

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    (it's not a perfect description, but it gets a point across)

  19. HEAVY-D

    HEAVY-D Eh?!

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    Not killing, raping and stealing.
    Not using my family as a punching bag.
    Not drinking and drugging.
    Helping other addicts recover.
    Being a responsible parent and teaching my kids to be responsible and account for their actions.
    Doing an act of kindness whenever I can without looking for credit.
    Treating my elders with respect.
    Speaking up when a wrong has been done.

    I know these few things seem trivial but they are important to me. I have no desire to be in the spotlight or famous for that matter. I have many Heroes most of which no one knows.
  20. ivanolo

    ivanolo Guest

    ^^^ This guy speaks the truth! I'd like to add that, if I can't do something positive, then I try not to negatively affect those around me.

    If I hated the USA, I wouldn't have left Venezuela to come here! But when I look at other countries that are pulling ahead of us in certain areas of Science, Politics, Economics, technology, and social issues, I can't keep calling America the greatest country on the face of the Earth.

    I still haven't seen proof that "torture saves lives." It sure has a comforting, reassuring ring to it, though.
  21. bbsmitz

    bbsmitz Optimus Prime

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    I have absolutely no idea why, but for some reason, I always imagined you as Polish or eastern european. Maybe the name 'ivanolo'.

    Yeah....
  22. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    I hate America? Since I don't agree with your views then that must mean I hate America?
    Really?

    Congratulations! You have now mastered the Sean Hannity style of debate, when you can't argue your point call the opposition anti-American! I'm pretty sure having a different opinion or criticizing our government is not anti-American, in fact I'm pretty sure it's the American way! That's why we the people are allowed to vote those out of office that do not do what we like.

    lol! Safe from what? What is it that you are so damn scared of that you see it necessary to alter American principals?
    You don't make any sense, some how you will be safe but I wont?


    And what exactly were our strengths during WWII? Working closely with other nations? Acting on good intelligence? Fighting the enemy with a better/smarter strategy?
  23. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    QFT!
  24. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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  25. tex

    tex jive turkey

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    Touche. I was tired and mixed up "advanced interrogation techniques" or whatever they called it (it didn't help that they put waterboarding on there - oh noes! it isn't torture! :D )

    debating endlessly. slacktivism good sir! but he does make a good point. most people will debate endlessly, but what do most people do? jack shit. obama's "yes we can" was a big hit here with the college crowd, but now they're back to sitting around all day getting stoned, then going and getting drunk and knocking off car mirrors. Most people really don't do shit except fend for themselves (which is fine, but don't take a high and mighty attitude about it)

    shane - for once in your life try and be a little less partisan (and fucking dramatic). i imagine you hissing after everytime you say the word "republican". you are like the tac of the liberals