What do we do about Afghanistan?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by ivwshane, Sep 6, 2009.

?

What do we do in Afghanistan

  1. Pull out, it's unwinable

    10 vote(s)
    58.8%
  2. Increase the number of troops and do everything we can to destroy the Taliban

    4 vote(s)
    23.5%
  3. Leave troop levels the same and just keep the Taliban in check

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Build a nation, create a govenrment that's actually capable of running it's own country

    3 vote(s)
    17.6%
  1. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

    Messages:
    6,633
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Earth
    I don't see any way to "win" in Afghanistan without some major change.

    Just like in Iraq the debate really boils down to what is the objective? Is it to keep the Taliban at bay and tied up? Or is it to get Afghanistan to a point where they can run their own country?
  2. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

    Messages:
    29,575
    Trophy Points:
    78
    The answer is actually B plus E. E being "Change tactics" of course. Force alone isn't going to get it done, the last 8 years have proven that. Force plus a "hearts and mind" tactic is what is required. During the Bush years our tactic was just to slaughter as many of them as we could, and the body count method simply doesn't work. In fact history has shown that again and again.

    From the start of the 20th century to now the success rate for nation building is something like 35%. If you just count those instances where a "hearts and minds" approach is used it shoots up to something like 70%. They were talking about it on the BBC the other day. Our commanders are doing the smart thing (finally) by looking to history for answers.
  3. tweakmonkey

    tweakmonkey Webmaster Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,859
    Trophy Points:
    78
  4. ThatHideousStrength

    ThatHideousStrength Junior Member

    Messages:
    6,109
    Trophy Points:
    53
    GTFO but that's impossible since this war has been sold out to corporations through contracts like Iraq. Thanks Bush and friends.
  5. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

    Messages:
    29,575
    Trophy Points:
    78
    OK, so we cut and run. What about the Taliban and the opium? Those problems won't go away, they'll just get worse.
  6. Norleck

    Norleck Greenhouse Director

    Messages:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Panama City, Fl
    I'd like to know which nations we've rebuilt since the start of the 20th century. None of the options are good imo. We're stuck in a mire. The country is so backwards from what we know and so 3rd world that we wouldnt have the resources to pull off building it. Yes I know, I havent given an answer. I've just criticized the whole operation. But still, I'm open to good ideas on how to resolve the Afghanistan issue.
  7. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

    Messages:
    6,633
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Earth

    It's been like that for years if not decades. Cut and run and put measures in place to protect us at home better as well as keep a better intel on them as well as improve communication through the various federal agencies.
  8. JZL

    JZL Ministry of Whack

    Messages:
    3,027
    Trophy Points:
    78
    Location:
    Missouri
    Surge. I don't think we should withdraw there (yet). I was never against Afghan ops like I was invading Iraq.
  9. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

    Messages:
    30,026
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    Rogue Valley Oregon
    Bring our guys home. if there was ever a venue for mechanized robotic warfare, this is it.
    let the machines do our dirty work, but bring our young people home.
  10. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

    Messages:
    6,633
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Earth
    I was thinking the same thing. Just keep them in check and irritated through the use of drones.
  11. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

    Messages:
    29,575
    Trophy Points:
    78
    I would just like to point out that there was similar talk about Iraq a few years ago and that conflict is basically won now.
  12. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

    Messages:
    6,633
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Earth

    What do you mean won? We don't even know what the original goal was!! Did we find WMD's? Did we stop the terrorists?
  13. Norleck

    Norleck Greenhouse Director

    Messages:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Panama City, Fl
    Iraq? Won? Hardly. Soon after we pulled out of the cities, you know, what they have been crying for years about, they asked us to come back. It seems they have little confidence in their forces ability to hold off the violence. They wanted us gone, we obliged and now we are on our way out. The sooner the better in my opinion. Leave some troops to train, observe and advise. Thats all we should be doing in Iraq.
    Afghanistan is a whole different story. You really cant compare the two.
  14. tweakmonkey

    tweakmonkey Webmaster Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,859
    Trophy Points:
    78
    Hasn't opium been a problem since the earliest civilizations? I don't follow the news but didn't realize the Drug War and the Terrorism War were linked.
  15. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

    Messages:
    29,575
    Trophy Points:
    78
    I'm just going to disengage from this conversation, we've had it a million times and I think everyone knows where everybody stands. We defeated the Iraqi government, replaced it with another, and that government is now on the verge of autonomy. Whatever the motive or pretense for going in we have achieved regime change and nation building.
  16. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

    Messages:
    30,026
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    Rogue Valley Oregon
    In that reguard we succeeded, but in a realistic change for the region, i have no confidence that it's even possible. The problem being the black hole of stagnant religeousity. The reasons for our separation of church and state has been reinforced and bumped a few notches in my view of what should be a priority in constitution, from what i've witnessed these past 20 years or so in the middle east. but as for actually changing anything in Iraq or afganistan, the people have to want to change it before any proddings from the west will have an effect. they're so riddled with the fear factor and guilt manipulation, that we'll not see it change in our lifetimes.
  17. ATIzed

    ATIzed New Member

    Messages:
    651
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Just my opinion, but the way I see it is with Iraq, whether you believe it's won now or not, or whatever, one could perhaps eventually see a noticeable progression and leap forward because they at least have an oil production infrastructure from which to build profits and build a new country plus already being a modern country. In another 30 years, I would think that if they were able to stay on a decent path and can control the violence to the point where things can progress, don't fall into the hands of another Saddam or a leadership that would stifle advancement then perhaps you could call it a win if you compared it to the point it is right now.

    Afghanistan has what? What does it produce that can sustain economic growth and allow the country to modernized and the people to build wealth, etc? In another 30 years it could still look the same or worse, and we are certainly not going to be able to foot the bill forever with the financial abandon that has been visited upon us by our own leadership in the past decade and up to this point. To me it's hard to say what the right option is for sure because we have to balance finances with killing terrorists wanting to destroy us. With our economy sputtering and the wheels maybe eventually coming off even if we recover in the near future, then I guess my initial reaction would be using UAV's and some other weapons at our disposal to keep some of the terrorist elements in check at a lower price, but then my other thought would be, didn't we have Bin Laden in our sights once already with a UAV and did not take him out?
  18. Norleck

    Norleck Greenhouse Director

    Messages:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Panama City, Fl
    And thats the difference I was too lazy to point out. Thank you for putting it in words that I couldnt put together.
  19. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

    Messages:
    6,633
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Earth
    Exactly! Iraq and Afghanistan are completely different beasts.

    No, we had them in our sites but needed enforcements in order to go after them (at Tora bora) and it didn't happen due to internal bickering at the highest levels of our government. The CIA had been tracking them and needed support of the army rangers and it didn't happen and Bin Laden escaped.

    Click on 2001 "CIA takes the lead" and the following clip "Bin Laden escapes Tora Bora".
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/cron/

    I've posted this link before but I think it's worth mentioning agian:
    FRONTLINE: bush's war | PBS
  20. wheezer

    wheezer Junior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    23
    anyone who thought we could get into Afghanistan without fucking it up and shitting all over the people the way we did the last time against the Soviets, is fooling themselves.

    The intentions may have been noble and good, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
  21. Tacdriver

    Tacdriver Junior Member

    Messages:
    3,085
    Trophy Points:
    53
    We could have done it. We didn't do it and now.......people are asking why?! Politics dictates a certain kind of domination and domination is what is needed. We haven't had that......thank you bleeding hearts and people after stories. There is no giant "Love My Country" focus out there of a magnitude as we had during WWII. Media blackouts is a good 1st start but we need carpet bombing without fear of Anti-American outlets broadcasting where we've bombed.......what's been bombed and......where our troops are at.

    That is apparently too much to ask for the ACLU and our media. Every empire crumbles and ours will fall because of weak, cowardly, individuals that hide behind their ideals for a better society.....their hatred for an opposing opinion and......I guess once wasn't enough............COWARDICE.
  22. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

    Messages:
    30,026
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    Rogue Valley Oregon
    I would have been concidered a loose cannon of rogue if I were in combat during any action from 1966 until present. I probably would be working for a big contractor today. The political interfereance would have driven me totally psycho on the battlefield. This cowardice you speak of is not a new thing and has perpetuated and grown since my younger days. What we need is a
    stronger backbone and people to stand up to a minority that has too much political pull. This would start at flushing the educational system of the need felt by many teachers to "share" their political views in the classroom. I'm all for free speach, but not in the classroom with other people's kids.
    In The case of VietNam we protested. We protested the establishment that was sending our friends, against their will to a war that was utter chaos. Had no leadership that was effective and a seemingly endless parade of messed up individuals coming back.

    I maintain that if our leadership is affraid of the media and bleeding hearts as bad as they seem to be, then we need to learn to not make war. Our leadership needs to learn the constitutional basis and international rules of engaugement and stick to those and tell the media to fuck off and therefore get in and get the job done quickly and effectively with the least amount of loss of life. Therefore, the people of this nation and it's leaders need to grow a pair. We the people have given the media every ounce of power they have.
  23. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

    Messages:
    7,077
    Trophy Points:
    78
    Location:
    St. Louis area, but in Illinois
    I think the true option isn't listed: "Increase the troop levels, and keep the Taliban in check." Leaving the troop levels the same won't keep the Taliban in check, and increasing the troop levels won't destroy the Taliban. Being a vast mountainous region, as well as being land-locked, in an area where we have few (and those are shaky, politically) routes of access, we simply can't crush the Taliban without simply depopulating areas via politically suicidal genocide.

    I don't think we can recover from having taken off the pressure on the Taliban, by starting the other war in Iraq. Meanwhile, Iraq is doing what I thought it would do, no matter when we leave; starting up the ethnic tensions and ramping up to another period of discordant anarchy. The only way Iraq would stay semi-stable, is if we stayed there for eternity, acting as lubricant between the locals and officials.
  24. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

    Messages:
    6,633
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Earth
    Actually tac, most empires throughout history crumbled because they spread their military too thin trying to occupy countries and land that originally didn't belong to them. That in turn allowed their enemies to attack them and overcome them.
    Posted via Mobile Device
  25. ivanolo

    ivanolo Guest

    ^ Besides, internally, in addition to being divided against each other, we're already struggling with widespread ignorance, greed, and corruption. That should expedite things quite a bit.

    I think we shouldn't have shifted focus from Afghanistan to Iraq. Saddam Hussein was no more a threat to us than Kim Jong Il. We could've used those resources to try to track and kill Osama Bin Laden. Unfortunately, we didn't. We should increase our presense in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but if we do, things will become unstable in Iraq as soon as we leave. We kinda fucked ourselves....