Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Torx, Jan 4, 2009.
I'm tired of war and killing, but this is unfortunately absolutely correct.
PS - I got 600+ or so.
This is going to be one big circle jerk. All this will do is create more extremists.
clearly the solution is to let hamas continue to launch missles into israel on a continued basis
I blame Egypt.
My opinion on the matter(and it should be treated as an opinion) is that our government should not fund Israel's military. Had we not dumped tons of cash and technology into Israel they might not exist. Israel spys on us, some of their spys have been caught(that's how they got the nuke). I'm not saying that Israel shouldn't exist. Though I am opposed to the way it was given power and the way it currently runs it's regional relations.
Israel themselves do not appear to be friendly neighbors. Had they dumped money into Palestinian infrastructure, etc they might have an ally right now(think post WW2 Germany). From what I've read and seen it doesn't appear that they(the gov) want to make piece. The people of Palestine still live in camps, no real permanent housing for many. Poor infrastructure. It just seems like once it quiets down they ignore their neighbor, rather than trying to help them. I would not be surprised if some of the people calling shots were themselves quite prejudice if not worse.
I don't know how likely this is, but I know it's possible. I've pondered whether the reason we dump so much money into Israel is because we know they will buy weapons from us with it. Supporting the military industrial complex(which is somehow controlling the gov, lobbying maybe) that so many crackpots and conspiracy theorists talk about.
Its a shame they cannot/will not support thier neighbors and seek peace. But look at the religeous aspect of the region. Islamists can't get along with other sects of Islamists, let alone another entirely different religeon. Both sides are stubborn as hell and won't give an inch. One side vows total anihalation of the other and takes pot-shots at the other on a constant and escalating basis and the other side strives to be the regional elitists with a controversial claim to soverignty.
No doubt. The moment you roll over and give them what they want you've lost. And guess what? Anybody else that was on the fence will now follow suit because they know the tactic works. Fighting extremism with guns is unpopular, but ultimately I think it's the only thing that works.
We give them money for there Tech and there intel work. US sure give them tanks and jets because Israeli Govt. is super rich, and to this day i dont understand what there revenue source. I mean i understand most of it but still those shouldn't give them this much revenue. But when it comes to tech, Israel is way more advance then any one in War based tech. There are also other reasons like how they have integrated there people so they can influence big decisions... As always my respect goes to Mossad, just amazing family business.
There was a time when 3 major religion use to live on that land. Christan, Jewish and Muslims they use to live very well there. But the problem started when Jewish had to expand and so started this conflict.
Sovereignty from start belongs to Palestine. No mater how much you build the up on that. The fact remains the same the land is Palestinians. By that right US and other nation should help Palestine by providing Israeli a diff location to live, since they from start were on borrowed time. Even if Israeli use force to take over a land that not there's; is still wouldn't be theres'.
That tactic don't work man. It probably let you win that particular conflict. But it gives birth to next generation terrorism. The country or group is at its weakest when they have claim victory. In War College they teach few strategies how to use that to advantage. Not to mention the fallout from the conflict...
When team that are highly specialize in dealing with certain scenarios are taught, they are specifically taught how to go about achieving a given task without giving birth to next generation terrorism. Unlike good old days, when all that was needed was force, now they require high degree of intelligence when making specialize teams. That makes playing so much more fun .
That is unfortunate but thats how a war is fought when two uneven side are fighting, the one that is on disadvantage uses the environment for its advantage. Unfortunately people are part of the environment at that point.
It sure be nice if we can go back to swords and gather in big field and fight out that way. Be alot of fun.
wow demonize, where to start....
with regard to original sovereignty the land most everyone in the world lives on belonged to someone else in the past. you cannot go moving an entire population because someone has a sandy vagina. the land belongs to israel now, nothing will or should change that.
with regard to israel's tactics. you cannot let the little crybabie bitches of the world run free to do what they want. when someone launches over 6000 missiles in 3 years into your country, you have to do something to stop it, or soon you wont have a country. sadly for the palestinians, israel is big and bad enough to do something about it.
with regards to how the war is fought, hamas knew this would happen. HAMAS are the ones fucking their own people by stirring up shit. i would bet my life and the life of my whole family that if nobody attacked israel, they would not fuck with anyone.
PS its not and cannot be possibly construed as, israel's responsibility to build up foreign nation's infrastructures. that's being fucking silly
I am specifically talking bout Israel and Palestine. The land that was given to jewish was for temporary basis not for them to make there own country on that land.
Its like you give refuge to some one in your home and after a while they claim your home as there own. I dont think you will like that much.
Israel alone is nothing, if USA wanted it would have been very easy to find a peacefull solution for that problem. The problem is Israel know how to corrupt and control. Thats how they acquired the tanks and weapons needed for what they doing. They excel in exploiting. I dont think there is any thign wrong in that. Since we have done that soo many time. LOL. I am just stating facts.
As for rocket, they wouldn't have been launch if Israel didnt push Palestinian out of there land to increase there own land for there own population. You should have seen the perimeter they drew to clean up the palestinian housing so they can increase there own. It was funny for us, because from our analysis it was going to turn in to hostile take over. Which it did.
Hamas is a offical GOVT for that land. Its not stirring up shit. Its only fighting for whats there. As i said earlier if your guest take over you home you will do some thing about it, so they are fighting to take there land back. If you read foreign news you will see how much of a mess Israel has created using there influence around the world. There tactics has never been to directly effect any thing, but they indirectly effect alot of things.
So the government isn't stirring up shit, it's fighting for what's theirs? You just contradicted your own statement and I'm not even going into your previous post. Was Israel the one that ended the truce?
WTF? I'll have what you're having.
I dont see the contradiction... Fighting to preserve ones belonging is not stirring up shit. Its simply protecting your belonging.
For example. If you open door to someone to help. But later that someone try to take over your house, your belongings; if you can use force you will force the person out. Or call for help from authorities. Your actions is not consider stirring up shit. You just reacting to the situation that was stirred up by the hostile take over.
But what do you do when that happen to a country there is no force to decide on other countries matter... So they(Palestinians) using force to get back what is right fully there's. Its just that simple.
As for the truce... did you know there definition of truce, move on your own accord or we will move you with force. Truce mean both side mutually compromise and come to common peaceful conclusion. Israel never care for common peaceful grounds. In all my years of experience dealing with people who use force to take some thing, they never just stop. They always want more and more. Until a superior force steps in, and stops them.
EDIT:I really dislike using the full name like Israel and Jewish. Since its bunching up the good people of that community/religion... So when i am talking about them i am talking about the people who are in control of the forces and the political world.
Sorry, but i dont understand that.
By the way i enjoy conversation of this level, it let me learn different prospect, and how people perceive things. As long it stay nice and clean it usually good learning experience.
That kinda goes with a suspicion I've had about Isreal being kinda the village bully over there. I couldn't even offer a wild guess as to what the solution is for the problems that
region has had for many generations. I do really believe that if politics were not an issue, that all the common people would figure out how to get along with each other no matter what thier religious beliefs were.
Yeah that is very true. I remember hearing about how close the ties were among people before all the crap started. If a family didnt have enough to feed the kids, the food from the neighbor use to go to help feed the kids, regardless of there differences. And vice versa.
Normal/common people just want to co exist. They didnt care for minor differences. Its the politics that created huge partition among people. Its unfortunate that the people who held power, instead of teaching how to build bridges using the commonality between people with different background. They taught and created wedges by showing people the differences... There are more commonalities then differences among the people.
I'm sure that the Israeli's as they are now were actually living in and around Jerusalem at the time of or before Christ was born. I don't mean the biblical stuff. I'm sure I've read things about the 'Maccabean jews' pre christianity.
I mention this because maybe this gives them a slight right to the land allocated to them in 1948 by the WAR WINNING ALLIES, against the wishes of the palestinians and surrounding arab nations.
Unfortunately, the palestinians are treated like shit by Israel and by their muslim brothers. It amazes me that Hamas can acquire up to date rockets and weapons, but, Gaza cannot get enough food, water and medical supplies! I think the palestinians are being used by other countries to further other countries' religious hatred / fear of Israel.
Israel was the one that broke the cease fire agreement from what I know.
From what I understand the opposite is true.
Nope. Israel killed 6 in a raid back 2 months ago.
And what prompted the raid? We could probably do this all day.
chicken or the egg? it doesn't matter. it'll go on and on as long as the politicians want it to.
The Jews can afford for it to go on as long as need be, so they win by default. The death toll on the Israeli side hasn't even hit double digits yet, has it? For sure not 20. And hundreds and hundreds of Arabs are dead. It's a numbers game.
I read 7 Israelis dead as of a recent report...who knows if it's gone up.
contrary to popular belief the jews started migrating to modern israel well before 1948. it started around the first world war. eventually the brits were like 'fuck this' and pulled out, defaulting the land to the jews.
after the war the US said we would recognize an israel state, so that's when it was 'officially' born
For a conflict America is so heavily invested in, both in blood and money, the lack of clear and frank discussion regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict in the United States always astounds me.
Although to be fair, I've been home for a couple of weeks and was able to watch the coverage on CNN and found it to be surprising good. I even saw a debate between Dershowitz and some other guy. Maybe its just the pressure of internet media, but it seemed as if mainstream media felt compelled to actually report on some of the occurences of Gaza.
I could attempt to describe the situation, its historical origins, the immediate causes of the conflict, but others here have already done this, some better than others. Instead I offer what I believe will become of this.
1- Israel will not destroy Hamas. Hamas's resilence is beyond any military weaponry. They solidified their legitimacy to Gazans through their victory in free and fair elections. As long as Israel refuses to seriously negotiate and continues to break international law and annex more land the political solution offered by groups like Fateh will be viewed with cynicism and violent resistance will be seen as legitimate.
2- Israel will be reduced in world standing. Forget arguments about keeping civilian casualties at a minimum, the IDF uses cluster bombs on residential areas. Israel's definition of militant is so broad it includes the guy who works a sewage plant in Gaza city; he is after all a goverment employee and that government is Hamas. As the Palestinian-Israeli death ratio rockets past 100-1 people will begin to question why Israel felt it needed to respond in the way it did.
3- Hamas will emerge stronger. Was Hezbollah weakened after the 2006 war? Was it blamed for the cluster bombing of beirut? It emerged stronger than ever and the population demonized Israel for its collective punishment of an entire people. People look at the devastation and say 'why should my entire neighbourhood be levelled because one person in it attacked you'?
Israel's stance currently is not sustainable. It is an apartheid state that continues to seek military solutions to innately political problems. Until it comes to the negotiating table in good faith this issue will never be resolved and no one will live in peace. Any argument that the land is simply now Israel's is infantile and short sighted. If you agree with such an idea then you agree that land can be rightly taken by force and thus legitimize the very actions of Hamas and every other militant organization.
This is all election year politics Israel style. I'm not a Central-Asia expert but Netanyahu is making a big comeback in recent polls. The current government has always been considered weak so it just makes sense this is happening right before the elections. If Netanyahu gets control again now that you have Hamas in control of Gaza for the first time, he will be their worst nightmare and everyone knows it. The current government is trying initiate his first strikes before the elections to win Netanyahu votes. On the flip side, Fatah in the West Bank seems ready to bring peace, there could be a Palestinian state someday as I'm sure they would welcome the demise of Hamas.