Tea party

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by ivwshane, Apr 12, 2009.

  1. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    I've been hearing some talk about tea party's happening around the US in protest of governments spending and it got me to wondering. One, where were these people in the last eight years (rhetorical question).

    But what I really want to know is, so what? What's the big deal? I know it feels wrong in saying this and it's wrong that we are spending a ton of money we don't have (we as in government) but why does it matter?

    I also keep hearing the argument that our kids will have to pay this mess back but what does that really mean?

    Will government have to raise taxes so much that people will only be employed by the government and paid in iou's until the debt is paid?

    Seriously though? Our debt is huge but in the grand scheme of things it's also imaginary. If we don't pay it back what's china going to do? Are they going to attack us? Are they going to boycott the US and stop sending us their goods so we can't buy their products?

    So again I ask, so what? All we have to do is keep up this imaginary game of creating value/worth out of thin air and everyone is happy so who cares if our debts are never paid off, as long as there is an intent to pay it off then whats the big deal?
  2. ninefivezero

    ninefivezero infinite resolution

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    I think the bottom line is that everyone knew what Obama's economic plan was going to be (government stimulus) and he won the election, the protesters are in the minority. Do they have the right to protest and be unhappy with it? Of course, people ought to make their views known all the time, but this specific protest seems kind of absurd.

    As you pointed out, where were these people over the last 8 years while Bush was running up the deficit? These really seem like anti Obama protests instead of anti-bailout protests or whatever they are really protesting. It's honestly unclear. Obviously this is being pushed hard by the right (and Fox News) so it's pretty hard to seperate the two goals. Then you have people like Glen Beck comparing the bailouts and Obama's budget to the attacks on Pearl Harbor and 9-11, and all creditability is lost.

    Media Matters - Common Nonsense: Beck airs "Message from Thomas Paine," who promotes tea parties, links 9/11 attacks to passage of stimulus
  3. Jackalope

    Jackalope NNNNEEERRRRDDDSSSSS!!!!!!

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    glenn beck is a moron. he also falsely claims to be libertarian.

    not a bush defender, but he took 8 years to raise the deficit as high as he did. obama is only taking a few months to triple it.

    also higher debt = inflation
  4. Torx

    Torx Indigenous Nudist

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    what happens when the usa cant pay back? we start a war. we conquer. we then owe nothing. rinse and repeat.
  5. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    It won't accomplish but one thing: A collective voice saying: "we know you're screwing us, our children, our children's children and many generations down the line. WE are pissed!!!"
    This country started with a tea party as a stimulus to a revolution. Taxes are being raised through the roof on things other than income. Smokes, alcohol, next fuel, and just about everything people "indulge" in from cell phones to internet. Open your eyes people this "stimulus" is not a freebee, it's a severe act of robbing peter to pay paul and a hugr slide of hand. Like a horrible magician, this audience is calling the government on
    performing a sorry excuse for slide of hand. The smoke and mirrors isn't working. We're tired of the sorry assed "token bones" that are being thrown our way.
  6. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    Wow. So what you're saying is that we shouldn't worry about our nation being fiscally responsible at all? That we should run up all sorts of debt in order to artificially keep this mess going? You know there's absolutely no way this can be sustained, right? The moment that China and other countries get the idea that we can't repay the loans they stop loaning, we default, and our whole way of life would come crashing down rather quickly. But why am I worried about it, according to you it's no big deal! :D

    This graph explains it. It IS important we be fiscally responsible, we do have to be responsible for our debts, and the current clusterfuck is going to cost us for generations. I wasn't happy about Bush's spending, this nightmare is almost difficult to fathom...

    [​IMG]
  7. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    It all proove, to me, that we are at the mercy of (what I've been saying for years now) the corporate greed that has a grip on this world. When the USA didn't have enough capital to leech, they went global. Fiscal/financial irresponsibility and greed is what got us here. Of coarse it matters.

    But alas MSP, it won't stop until it does come crashing down on everyone. for some of us, it already has. It'll all come crashing down, or it will be one fucked up "bubble" bursting at a time like the dotcom, energy, and housing bubbles. It's all one big ponzi scheme and there's not much you or I can do about it. Voting doesn't do anything as all our congress cares about is getting votes so they can continue to participte in the raping. Corporations run the guv and they want a piece of that action bad enough to tell us only what they know we want to hear. Which doesn't translate to reality more than just throw token bones at us to keep us chasing the carrot on the end of a stick.
  8. tex

    tex jive turkey

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    I think the real catalyst here is not the skyrocketing debt but who is getting the bailouts. People only give a shit because they are seeing wall st bankers run off with huge bonuses after just fucking everyone. if that stuff wasn't so visible, i doubt you would see any of this. bush spent slowly, obama is spending fast. (i still think the protests are stupid, but thats the rationale i see)
    damn hippies.

    edit: and i also love now that people are starting to realize that obama is not black jesus, half the excuses/defenses are "b-b-b-but bush..."
  9. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    You guys all completely missed the point, which I guess is my fault for not being clear.

    First let me just say this, the point of this thread is NOT about whether we should be fiscally responsible, it's NOT about why we should be fiscally responsible but rather what happens if we aren't (or at the least what happens if we continue down a similar path but to a lessor degree)?


    MSP you say that there is no way that this can be sustained but why? You show me a graph that shows a skyrocketing debt but don't explain how it affects us other than saying it's bad, how/why is it bad? What is the end result?

    Debt only has value to the holder if the debtor promises to pay it back. Once that promise is broken, the debt is worthless.

    Of course at the individual level not paying your debt back can have negative consequences but at the global level not paying your debt back (especially one as large as ours) means every party is held hostage.

    China can't demand immediate repayment because we will refuse either because we can't pay it back or because we wont pay it back and as soon as we say no all that debt china holds becomes completely worthless. Basically if we go down they go down and vice a verse.

    So long as we promise to pay back that debt all is ok, it doesn't matter if we owe 1 million dollars or 100 trillion dollars, it doesn't matter if we pay it back one dollar at a time or one billion at a time, the promise just needs to be there to keep everything going and it's in everyone's best interest to make sure that it does.
  10. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    The consequences are pretty black and white really. Like an individual or company a country has a credit rating. The more debt you have, the more trouble you have making your payments, the lower that rating goes. And just like an individual or company eventually they stop loaning you money. At this point we've got such a debt, such a deficit, that we can't even run the basics of our government without foreign money. So the consequences would be basically what happened to the Soviet Union in 1988 - we'd run out of operating capital and experience a total collapse. But even worse would be making the payments, spending all of our GDP to pay interest on these loans, just because the folks in Washington can't balance the checkbook. It's just another example of the cure being worse than the disease.
  11. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Except that in our case the whole world is tied to, not only our economy being sound, but also our dollar being sound. So unlike when Russia fell not much in the world changed (financially speaking) but if the US fell all hell would break loose.

    I hear what you are saying and I agree in principal but if you draw it out over the long run, the world cannot let us fail because if we fail they fail.

    Now lets say that the rest of the world has moved on, the dollar is no longer being used by them and foreign countries no longer loan us money. What's the worse thing that would happen? My guess is that we would have a depression followed by an up rise of domestic manufacturing and a new country founded by self reliance with no help from foreign entities.

    Sure we couldn't get a loan from foreign entities but that just means we be loaning money to ourselves backed by good and services that we sell and make ourselves, just like we did in the past.

    Now our foreign debt would still be there but if everyone else is using something other than a dollar and no one is lending to us then what reason/incentives do we have to pay it back?


    I think this situation is unique and could only happen to the US because of our current position and because of our land mass and the ability we have to grow and supply our own food. If other countries tried to do this they would fail because most (I think china would be ok) cannot support themselves with the assets that they have.
  12. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    Well, many countries are already starting to unpeg their currency from the dollar. And the Chinese among others are pushing for it to be replaced entirely with a one world currency. This whole situation is not in our favor at all, and we could probably debate it for a long time but I'll just post this link. It's got all the info you need really, particularly the section on "long term risk". The debt weakens us as a nation:

    United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  13. tex

    tex jive turkey

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    it'd be a dick move?
  14. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Yeah it definitly would be but since when has that stopped us?

    Msp the link has a lot of good info but all the consequences I read were all reletively short term and would force us to be removed from the world stage. Seeing how that is exactly what true republicans like ron Paul want, how would that be a bad thing?
  15. GRP

    GRP oh snap

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    C'mon fiddy.
  16. tex

    tex jive turkey

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    Then lets go ahead with the whole carpet bombing somalia thing
  17. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    See, that's another matter altogether. If we're going to go back to isolationism, recoil from the world wide economy, get out of NAFTA, etc, this isn't the way to do it. Slowly moving our manufacturing back home would be step #1. I'm just completely blown away at your position - advocating never ending debt. I'm not quite sure what to say, it's just madness...

    But back to the tea parties, turns out ours here in Cincinnati was the largest. 6,000 people strong is pretty decent turn out for a small city. That's about how many people showed up to the Million Man March... :)

    Tax revolt a recipe for tea parties - USATODAY.com
  18. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    I never said never ending debt was my position. I just want to know where that path goes. We've been constantly told that it's bad and it should be avoided at all costs and I want to know why and see if there is some sort of alterior motive.

    If I know the end game then I can find out who would benefit from it.
  19. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    Well frankly I think it's a way to force our nation towards socialism. And ultimately I don't think anyone will gain from it, it's just short sited idealism run amuck.
  20. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    If no one benefits from it then why would anything change?
  21. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    Lots of people do things after which they won't actually benefit, it's called foolishness.
  22. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Something like socialism doesn't happen because of foolishness!
  23. Eavanr

    Eavanr New Member

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    Personally, I think these 'tea parties' are infantile and largely manufactured outrage. I would take any view that these are largely grassroots movements as naive at best, outright disingenuous at worst, they reek of astroturfing.

    I also don't buy this shifting of spending blame to Obama, as it was Bush's people who engineered the multi-trillion dollar bailout Troubled Asset Relief Bailout (TARP) that was largely a failure.

    Demagogues like Beck, O'Reilley, or even Limbaugh should not have their faux patriotism taken seriously, as they can't even properly reference the founding documents of the country properly (see Limbaugh recent C SPAN speech).

    I suspect the angst of these protest can be easily rooted to economic difficulties, increased racial tensions due to Obama's ascent to the presidency, and overall declining living standards throughout the country. The turn to 'tea party' protest is somewhat ironic in that most of these people attending tea parties will be paying less taxes under Obama's economic regime.

    America's debt growth is dangerous for many reasons, I'll just list two. First, the rate of its growth is unprecedented resulting in its servicing requiring and increasing portion of the GDP at a time when the GDP is going to slow in growth. Second, by almost every empirical metric, America has been in relative decline for several years. Eventually China, India, and the EU will surpass it in economical and political importance and then maintenance of its position as global hegemon becomes problematic.

    And lastly, there is the issue of the omnipresent irrational hysteria of the fear of socialism in the collective American psyche. Part of the problem here is that the vast majority of Americans have no idea what socialism is, or the wide array of socialized services they already receive. The dominant belief is that the capitalist system just needs to be helped through this tough time. Save the system and all will be well.

    The problem with this fantasy, and yes I say fantasy, is that all is not well. Consider AIG's financial rescue. Ignore the widely publicized outrage of the massive executive compensation for the people who engineered the firm's destruction. Consider that the firm is now using its bailout money to take the U.S. government to court over its 2008 tax bill, claiming it paid too much in taxes. They are effectively suing their majority shareholder yet the government refuses to using its voting power to block the firm for fears that it would imply nationalization of the firm. However, the firm would not exist without the bailout. Had the bailout not occurred the firm would have collapsed taking large chunks of the American, and global economy, with it.

    It seems like the obvious solution in this instance is to exercise shareholder rights and block the tax litigation against the government. If that is the nationalization or socialization that makes so many of you Americans afraid, so be it.
  24. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    C'mon Eavanr, you must be joking or lying. Maybe our taxes aren't going up right now but eventually the bill has to be paid. You think a deficit like this (below) is going to be paid entirely by the upper class and businesses? Nigga please. It's going to trickle down and the middle class is going to shoulder the burden yet again. It's the whole lobster in the pot of water trick. Of course the water isn't boiling yet, they want to get us in the pot without a struggle and then they will apply the heat.

    [​IMG]

    As for the imminent decline of America, it's something I fear but don't at all see as inevitable.
  25. Eavanr

    Eavanr New Member

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    MSP, I am quite aware of the unsustainable fiscal position of the United States, and I agree with you that Americans for generations to come will face a crippling debt burden. I never said anything about upper class citizens and businesses being able to pay this burden. That would likely not be possible even if they faced the stringent tax standards found elsewhere in the world.

    However, it is somewhat naive to think that this is a new development. With the exception of the Clinton years, love him or hate him, American deficit spending increased precariously since the Reagan years. Bush set several records for new deficit spending and largely created an economy that erroneously worked to create imaginary wealth. This point has already been discussed by 950. To put it concisely: why was out of control spending acceptable under a white republican president, but is so wrong to the point establishing revolutionary elements under a black democrat president?

    So why did I use the words infantile and manufactured? I said infantile because this situation reflects the childish comprehension fiscal policy by many Americans, namely of the simple principle of don't spend more than you make. And I said manufactured because this movement only really came into being after a shift in the presidency, not any significant change in fiscal policy in the United States.