OK, this is fucking outrageous.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by MSP, Apr 20, 2009.

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  1. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    Tac's style really isn't much different than a few other people around here, he's just more blunt about it. I'd prefer more moderate, polite conversation as well but the constant barrage of "conservatives are dumb" comments really make that difficult.
  2. ninefivezero

    ninefivezero infinite resolution

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    What I just can't understand about the conservative point of view on this issue is that they claim water boarding is not torture and is not wrong, when in WWII America executed Japanese soldiers who water boarded American soldiers. Even John McCain has argued this point in his stance against the practice.

    PolitiFact | History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding

    There just no way to claim no crime was committed. To say it is OK for us to do, put punishable by death for others to do it is the essence of hypocrisy.
  3. SoulAssassin

    SoulAssassin Car Ramrod

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    Well that was 60 years ago, opinions and laws can change. Also, we're fighting an enemy that doesn't adhere to the Geneva convention so why would we be concerned about their feelings? If our people get captured they get beheaded, if they get captured they want a freaking trial. If Obama wants his "change" then he needs to outline what is/isn't allowed and close Guantanamo quickly. Otherwise I don't see much changing.
  4. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Answer the questions and I'll show you their relevance.

    I prefer brown haired girls.
  5. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    See, this is exactly the sort of thing that I'm talking about. I started the fucking thread because I was outraged about the water boarding, and yet you're lumping all the evil conservatives together and making a bunch of generalizations. Use prejudice wisely my friend, the world isn't as black and white as you appear to believe.

    And as for the comparisons to the Japanese executed for the practice, it was in fact just ONE method of torture they used on our boys. There were all sorts of other nasty things perpetrated by them, including the basic living conditions our soldiers were forced to endure. Water boarding alone wouldn't likely have sent them to the firing squad.
  6. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    The first half of your post is correct. I suspect that some key democrats will be involved before this is over and I suspect that it's one of the reasons this whole issue hasn't moved forward.

    For the second half of the quote, I disagree. We signed the geneva convention and agreed not to torture. Waterboard has been specifically classified as a form of torture.
  7. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    I'm not defending it, I'm just saying that water boarding was just the tip of the iceberg of what the Japs were doing. Starvation, beatings, shocking, burning, forced labor to the point of death, etc. As awful as it is the water boarding was a minor offense in the grand scheme of what was going on.
  8. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    And again I'm not debating the sevarity of waterboard or whether or not it's really torture. I'm stating fact, it's illegal.
  9. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    No shit. And all I'm saying is had it been the lone charge against the executed Japanese they likely wouldn't have been executed.
  10. namelessentity

    namelessentity Resident Cynic

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    This is the reason almost everything I post in a "serious" thread is in jest. I'm not going to waste my e-breath trying to convince people I'll never meet to agree with me. This forum is a time killer and fun for me, I'm not going to spend half my time googling articles to justify myself to some guy I'll never meet face to face.
  11. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Oh well, the alternate reality that I believe in says they would still have been executed.

    Any other ASSumptions you want to throw into your argument?
  12. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    And this was the other thing I was talking about. Fucking rude. This is where the civility broke down...

    But back on topic, water boarding is awful and inhumane and should be punishable by execution? That's some alternate reality you live in there dude. Apparently in that reality morality can be ordered ala carte.
  13. Commissar Smersh

    Commissar Smersh 2020 Staff Member

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    So MSP, are you a conservative or a moderate? In the past you've declared yourself a moderate but in this thread you object to being lumped in with the rest of the conservatives.
  14. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    lol You must be pissed! You are grasping at straws trying to pin anything you can on me.

    Inferance is not fact if your assumptions are untrue.
  15. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    VERY fiscally conservative, but socially moderate. I'd say the net result is moderately conservative.

    EDIT:
    Actually I'm not pissed at all. You were being rude and I called you on it, simple as that. That and I disagree. Dunking someone's head in water should result in the perpetrator's execution? It's a moral paradox you're standing in.
  16. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Reagan's DOJ Prosecuted Texas Sheriff For Waterboarding Prisoners

    Sure it's still over 20 years ago but I'm sure that's recent enough for you.
  17. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Can you point to me where I said the punishment fits the crime?
    Can you point out where I said I agreed or disagreed with torture?
  18. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    And was the Sheriff executed? No. Nobody's arguing that water boarding is wrong or even illegal, you're just frothing at the fucking mouth at this point. Take a deep breath.
  19. tex

    tex jive turkey

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    no. that is stupid. I am not letting you lead me through an argument. If you are trying to make a point, make it. you are obviously not fucking socrates.

    Your "facts" and "logic" have been demonstratably broken down before. You write giant walls of texts that equate to mostly opinion and pepper all your responses with personal attacks and condescension. I am not going to enable you by answering what will likely end up being conjecture again

    and also, while you're at it, lets take the emotion and personal attacks out this. you're an adult, act like it

    and thats just in this thread. there are other rampant examples of you personally attacking people in what is otherwise a civilized argument
  20. Eavanr

    Eavanr New Member

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    This has taken an unfortunate turn. I'm not upset at Tac or anyone else because they are conservative, I'm pissed because people are making up facts and regurgitating shitty propaganda. You can be conservative and still value human rights, especially on the issue of torture. One of my favourite examples is the Mulroney government of the 1980s. In Canada he came to power as part of the tories and in one of the central test of his character was when he joined the growing boycott against South Africa and its Apartheid state. This was years before other western powers, namely Britain and the United States addressed the problem. He stood against apartheid not because it was popular, not because it was a wise thing to do from the perspective of foreign relations, but because it was the right thing to do.

    Conservatives can be just as principled as any liberal. They can have just as much integrity and conviction. It's wrong to corner MSP and paint him with the same brush as animals such as Limbaugh.

    To other conservatives, if you support torture, if you support such egregious violations of human rights, don't act like hurt children when someone calls you a monster or a fascist.

    If the shoe fits...
  21. SoulAssassin

    SoulAssassin Car Ramrod

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    How the hell did you become a mod acting like that?

    What does that have to do with what I was talking about? I was referring to executing Japanese POWs.
  22. tweakmonkey

    tweakmonkey Webmaster Staff Member

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    This thread's broken.

    I won't lock it because I think we can all get past the personal attacks, etc., but I must say I'm pretty bummed out and disappointed after reading some of these posts, especially in the last 3-4 pages. I tend to stay away from the political threads now because of this stuff, but what I'm talking about specifically are the personal attacks and disrespect some of you are showing to each-other.

    You're all smart enough to know and discuss these issues like adults, so please try to show the respect/courtesy of accepting that people other than you have different points of view and value different aspects of both their lives and society. Nobody here is immoral/wrong, but the judging has to stop.

    We're a big family, dammit. Don't let the issue blind you into hating someone simply because they disagree. Get past it, hug it out, and try to stay on topic. THX
  23. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Opinions and laws haven't changed (with relation to waterboarding) that's how it's related.
  24. SoulAssassin

    SoulAssassin Car Ramrod

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    The law hasn't changed? In your very own linked article it says the law didn't exist.

  25. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    HowStuffWorks "The Legality of Torture"

    So we have at least two cases where waterboarding was considered torture and the defendents were prosecuted for those specific actions (in texas and the japanese soldiers).

    And we have multiple documents that the US has signed that prohibit the use of torture.


    I'm really not sure what to say at this point. If you are for torture that's fine you have to deal with that moral issue yourself but I could careless either way.

    My point is that many people in the Bush administration violated the law or attempted to rewrite it to suite their needs. They and those that added them should be punished to the full extent of the law, whether they are republican or democat.

    Just like those that called for Clintons impeachment for lying under oath I'm calling for prosecution for those that broke or added in breaking the law.
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