That just points up the difference between what people say, and what they actually do. Also, note that they aren't saying they WON'T vote that way, but just that your statement is stupid and chauvanistic! I'm suddenly hungry for deep fried breaded mushrooms... Of course, here in the US, if you get sick, you end up paying 110%, in "not taxes" to private institutions who give kickbacks (excuse me, campaign contributions) to the elected officials, which compensates for all those taxes you didn't pay. It's like I said before, in the US, we pay not-enough to actually get benefit from it, yet too much for what we do get. And we pay all this stuff to private institutions and don't count it as a tax. To compare Nordic tax rates to our own, we have to include all those little things that the Nordic Citizens get, that we don't, like school payment, basic medical insurance, and the like. If we include our crushing school debts, insurance payments (or in case of employer-paid insurance, our lower salaries and greater job insecurity), and the like, then compare the quality of what we get for it. It would be nice to see some of these types of numbers crunched.
Got bored and just started rereading posts...................the majority of this country disagrees with you man.......they seriously do.
Well, shit, I guess I'll have to change my beliefs in order to fall in with the flock! Thanks for letting me know how off base I was!
I think what this country needs more of are people who are willing to WORK for what they want. NOT expect it to be given to them through redistribution because others think it's just unfair that some prosper while others don't. If I make a million dollars, why should I have to give 40% of it to Uncle Sam only to be redistributed because Joe Schmo can only make 20K or less. How is this my responsibility? My responsibility is to defend my country and take care of my family. How about working for a living!!! Stop complaining about the country that allows you the right to complain that your practically poverty stricken (and they're out to get you.....us idiots don't realize that there is a conspiracy lurking behind everything) yet you can afford internet access. Ugh! I just can't take the bellyaching anymore. My son at the age of almost 22, suffering from Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy has more self respect than to EXPECT that anyone other than his family .........his family not the government or society should help take care of him. He has no sense of entitlement. I work hard for my family......not to help out some jackass that either is too lazy, addicted, or dense. Jesus bleeding hearts piss me off. You should consider yourself LUCKY to have at least been born in this country and not some 3rd world shithole that affords you absolute dick! This country that gives you the ability to make something of yourself if you apply yourself, not just accept your outcome. Wasted opportunities is a sad thing.
Welp, good to see there's still rationality in this discussion. Psh, it's too late! I've already turned on Fox News and begun working on my rapture kit!
What did I say that honestly didn't seem rational? I mean you can joke all you want but, what I said is all reality based..........not pipe dreams and candyland. What world are you coming from? Edit: Why is it so many people from all walks of life want to come to this country? Is it all a sham? How many of you can tell me you know someone that was born in the U.S. that is striving to make a new life for themselves and their family in another country because.........that's where the best opportunity lies for them. I've never heard of such a thing.
Yeah you're right. Kinda like this thread I started earlier but it got off an a huge tangent. http://www.tweak3d.net/forums/off-topic/dems-better-get-their-house-order-38355 No one really tried to back this dipshits statement.........just let it go, wave it off, whatever.....act as if it wasn't said and hammer the opposition on another point. Oh well...suck it up.
I have.. it's real and it's happening all over. I personally know people that have packed up and left for either Toronto, London, or outside Sydney. Theyre all living amazing lives, oh and with affordable healthcare. If John McCain is elected I'll be looking into this as well. It's not a threat, I'm not out to prove anything to anyone. I'm losing my hope and faith in this country, and by that I mean my entire faith is hanging on the string that John McCain is not elected. You can debate it all you want but there's maybe 3-4 conservatives on this board that are going to agree with you and back you up. The rest of us, the middle class, working, struggling, out of the box thinkers, are going to continue to turn this into a multipage debate. I have no problems with it, just letting you know. The Republic/Conservative view on the middle class and what we should do to help them is absolutely despicable. I like how you're basically saying that by higher class tax hikes, that only goes to help "lazy, addicted, dense" people. That takes a lot of balls to say, and I hope you re-read that and let it sink in. The middle class in this country is in shambles and it takes a lot of nerve to turn your back on your fellow Americans over a few thousand dollars a year, and on top of that categorize said Americans as "lazy, addicted, dense". Money talks I suppose. It certainly did in this case.
No one tried to defend the comment because if was from a nobody (notice how the msm isn't even talking about it anymore). I thought that thread stayed on topic but seriously, I have no idea what this thread is about anymore.
You're come out and attacked my patriotism. I've said nothing that undermines my basic pride and love of this country. But hey, if you want to rant on and on about how I hate my country more power to you. I'm honestly done with attempting discussion on this with you. Old dog, new tricks, etc.
The middle class in this country is in shambles because of their own actions. No savings, huge credit card debt, risky mortgages, reluctance to adapt to changing job markets... the list goes on and on. Once again, no one wants to take personal responsibility, everyone wants to blame someone else. I also resent the sentiment that has been expressed in this thread and in others recently that if you happen to be successful that you are lucky. While that might be the case for some people, say lottery winners, that is not the case with me or anyone else I know. I grew up in public housing. Everything I have today I earned. While people sit around and feel sorry for themselves I was working to make a better life for me and my wife. I'll be damned if anyone tries to chalk up what I have accomplished to 'luck'. If you really want to leave this country then go. But I suspect that you will end up staying regardless of the outcome of this election. How many people left when Bush was elected and re-elected? I heard a lot of talk but didn't see a lot of action.
No you don't........no one does. I mean....C'mon? Really? You aren't the majority of the middle class. Most people that have 9-5 jobs don't agree with you. They really don't..... no matter how many episodes of The Daily Show you watch. You are outnumbered. How is that cool "Out Of The Box" thing working for you in the REAL world? How old are you? Are you really struggling? Give me an example. I've opened up............now you be truthful. Talk to me about struggle. Uhh yeah I stand by my earlier absolutely despicable statement. I take care of my own......not you or others .........as I should. What's so hard to understand about that?.....................Letting it sink in...................I'm middle class................still letting it sink in..................not turning my back on fellow workers...........sinking in still..............pride increasing. What? I never attacked your patriotism! WTF are you babbling about? Just because you and I disagree doesn't mean I think you're any less a patriot. Are you intoxicated? Edit: I really don't understand why WORKING for what you want in life seems so alien to some? Why is it expected that society should provide it for you? This isn't Star Trek!! Goddammit if you want something in life whether it be a big family, a big house, your own business............whatever.......it's up to YOU THE INDIVIDUAL not society for shit's sake. Grow the fuck up you sniveling, whiny pansies!
I agree with him on that one Juballharshaw. I see where you are both coming from and my general feeling is similar to tacs, however, I would argue that the richer you are easier it is to become more rich. Why? Simply because there are plenty of loopholes in place in this country that allows one to take a minimal hit on their income as well as increase their income with minimum effort. Is it their fault they take advantage of such loopholes and take advantage of things that maximize their money? No I don't think so but that doesn't mean the system isn't setup for their benefit. And while I don't support welfare (I support education instead), it's not a simple matter of working hard. When job opportunities are down (like they are now) you have a couple of options: Find what you can (usually this means working for low wages) Or educate yourself and find a job market that allows for you to make more. The problem with the first option is that, if your wage is low how do you get ahead? If you have to pay for food and rent and transportation and all the other costs associated with being an adult then how does one make enough so that they can afford to go to school? Sure you could do both and go to a community college but doing so would take longer than focusing solely on educated yourself to be ready for that job market that is booming. And there is the possibility that by the time you are ready for the job market the boom will be over. Then what? And what if you go the other route? What if you do education first? How exactly are you going to pay for all the costs associated with being an adult? There are many people in the situations above some will make it and some wont. Those that have friends and family to help them out mostly likely will make or at least have a better chance then those without support. What about those who are in the middle of their lives and have been working hard only to find their jobs gone (either because the company went under or because their jobs where shipped over seas)? What do they do? They had a good paying job, they bought a house that was well within their budget, now what? Sure they have savings and maybe they can even afford to re-educate themselves for a job market that is hiring but what about those that have already been through this and no longer have a savings? What about those who have kids? If you read all that then I take my hat off to you because I probably would have skipped it My point is this, not everyone is in a bad position because they are lazy or because they made bad decisions. If you make $250k+ a year and now you have to pay $5000 more in taxes is that really a bad thing if it means those that are making less have to pay $3000 less in taxes which in turn will have a greater impact to them then the impact it would have on you? Are you that greedy that an extra $5000 is asking too much even though you make $250k+? And I know what you are saying; you worked hard for that money why should you have to pay more? And to that I say, did you really work harder than those making less than you? Can you really say that you work 200k times harder than those making 50k? Can you honestly say that, athletes for example. work 1 million times harder than those making 50k? So I ask again, is there anything wrong with helping people out by paying an insignificant amount more in taxes so those who aren't as fortunate as you can be just a little better off?
Yes!!!!! It's called years of schooling!!! Ugh! Are you serious? Man you left alot of open questions there. Simply put and I do mean simple..........you work until you sleep. That is all. Generation after generation has done exactly that. Why all of a sudden does it appear harder than it has been for the last 80 years? It can't be of course. Not everyone can be an American Idol, or Brad Pitt, or a rock star but, you CAN own your own home and be successful in life if you turn off the old ears to people that want to constantly tell you that it can't happen. You all know what I mean too.
So if you work until you sleep then how do you get a better job? You get promoted? And exactly how much of a chance do you have when competing against others for that promotion? What happens when that job is no longer there or you lose your job for reasons that you have no control over? You keep saying that with hard work it can be done and I agree! However the reality is that hard work isn't the only thing to it. Why has hard work worked for the past 80 years? Because america is completely different 80 years ago, hell it was different 25 years ago!! 80 years ago you could have a factory job and be able to buy a house and have a family! You can't do that now, there simply aren't that many factory jobs! We are getting off point here. We agree that it can be done, no doubt about it. What we seem to disagree on (and correct me if I am wrong) is that it is not always, 100% guaranteed to happen. And my point is this: What is wrong with giving people a little extra help to make it (I'm not saying handouts, welfare or anything of that nature) if it means the people at the top have to sacrifice a little (specifically tax cuts/increases)?
We do agree to an extent. I still believe that if I work hard or little and I'm able to make 10 million dollars............it's my 10 mill. It's not all of a sudden "way more than I need so we should give a big chunk to others." 80 years ago you sank or you swam.....hell that's wrong. 20 years ago.........you sank or you swam kinda. What's happened is that people know that if they fall, society is there to help. Sure it sounds good...utopian even but, there is no incentive at that point is there? "I can try or, I can get a government check.....hmmmmm?" Where is the incentive? That's where I'm coming from. I want the work ethic back that we had during WWII. Everybody worked their asses off and didn't expect a shitting thing. That's being a hard ass?
No arguments there. I think we agree for the most part but disagree on how to get there. I'm for teaching a man how to fish so he can feed himself for the rest of his life where you are for letting the guy figure out that if he wants to eat he better learn how to fish! Neither of us just want to hand out fishartyman:
Couldn't agree more, the problem is everyone seems to just want the fish without having to work for it.
Excellent. I could swear you just wanted to give the bastard a Trout because it was too damned hard to keep him from stealing it. I cannot believe we agree on something. One of your lefty friends will pipe in here with some ridiculous comment and it will be ruined for sure. Let the countdown begin.
Why all the animosity? The only difference is points of view based on belief. Tac's belief is not fact, and niether is Juball's or mine. People base thier beliefs on what info and experience is availabe in the moment they are living. So, formal debate is pointless and a waste of time concerning beleifs. WTF? Uhhhh.......things get off topic because this is the "off topic" section of the T3D site? If rigid structure is what motivates a person, a career in China may be a suitable place to be, I hear they are hell-bent on structure and rigid control. This is not a police state (yet). case in point, I beleive: Tac= took the blue pill. Juball=took the red pill. Because I "believe it, doesn't make it a "fact" PS, it's OK to have differnet opinions, views, beleifs, convictions and ideas. That's part of being human and free moral agents.
Uh, if it's like our case, the debts pile up because our income gets stretched, then stretched again. It's the same with the Nation, those at the lower end can't even keep up, let alone SAVE any money! We're squeaking by, but with an inability to sell this house which has been in the family for 50 years, yet whose hideous property taxes have spiked, sapping our income, while the home is basically unmoveable on the market at the moment. I'm self employed, so I have to buy my own health insurance, but I don't have enough money to use the savings account, so I'm just lucky that I'm healthy (knock on wood) so that the premiums aren't beyond me. We're sqeaking by with no actual credit card debt (we always make sure we can pay before we put stuff on the card, then pay it promptly), but our car has just been refinanced right when we were about to pay it off. One good nudge, and we're going to be knocked off our precarious ledge, and through no fault of our own. My parents used to be in an upper middle-class bracket, but back to back company shenanigans embroiled Dad in a morass of lost money, hideous legal leeches sucking the money out of him, and a serious heart problem followed by kidney failure and dialysis. When he died, he was 27000 dollars in debt. Luckily for Mom, it was all in his name alone, so she wasn't liable for payment, and it only took two years of harrassing phone calls from collection agencies in descending order, till the bottom-feeders who call to threaten one finally got tired and quit. You're living comfortably now, and think you'll be okay because you make "right choices", but you're only a few unforseen circumstances from losing it all through no fault of your own, and beyond your ability to control. Those at the bottom have a MUCH harder time getting ahead than you, no matter what hard work they do, since they can't afford an education, they get stuck in lower pay jobs, and the areas they live in cost them more for basic staples like food. Anyhow, this is why your statements from up there seem like talking down to us, down here in lower income brackets, and we feel defensive when you make it sound like it's somehow our own fault we're down here instead of up there.
Yeah! what he said I think the important thing to say at this point, is that the longer this economy and tolerated business practices that go with it, are allowed to continue, the closer and more frequent the "unforseen circumstances" are to reaching the one's that are (at present time) doing OK. Please do not think that it couldn't happen to you. most of us down here thought the same thing at one point in time.
