Islam is a peaceful religion?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by MSP, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. JZL

    JZL Ministry of Whack

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    Yeah, that's a good discussion, Goofus. There's a lot going on there. Some of the explanation for the rioting is that it's political manipulation, leaders fanning the flames. There's a theme that free speech is a uniquely Western praxis, most nearly pure in the U.S., but barely understood in the Arab world. There are also some troubling concepts, e.g., that blasphemy against Mohammed is a capital crime. That concept, if true as a religious, rather than a legal, precept, could be at the core of an argument that Islam is a primitive, violent religion.

    My googlation says otherwise. . . . http://www.reviewofreligions.org/5002/what-is-the-punishment-for-blasphemy-in-islam/

    Here we will examine the concept of blasphemy in light of the true teachings of Islam, and also analyse the fall-out of the incorrect interpretations of Qur’anic verses by Muslim scholars in countries such as Pakistan. Pakistan has the 2nd largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia, and 97% of its approximate 170 million inhabitants are Muslims. An analysis of Pakistan’s infamous blasphemy laws in light of the Qur’an, Hadith and Sunnah is pertinent because it is important to reveal that the Western media wrongly target these so-called ‘Islamic’ laws in Muslim countries to try and prove that Islam discharges harsh, excessive and medieval justice, whereas the reality is that these laws do not reflect the true Islam, only a completely erroneous interpretation of the Islamic law.

    Basically, any punishment for blasphemy is God's turf, and his alone . . .

    Despite the ill-treatment and disrespect shown to both the Holy Prophet(saw) and the Holy Qur’an, God instructed him not to retaliate, because, says God: “We will, surely, suffice thee against those who mock” (Ch.15:V.96). In other words, God Himself is sufficient to deal with those who commit blasphemy against Him, the Holy Prophet(saw) or the Holy Qur’an and He does not allow anyone else to mete out punishment in this regard. The Holy Prophet(saw) was advised by God to remain patient and to …follow not the disbelievers and hypocrites, and leave alone their annoyance, and put thy trust in Allah; for Allah is sufficient as a Guardian (Ch.33:V.49).​
    The Holy Qur’an gives clear guidance on how Muslims should behave when they are faced with those committing blasphemy. Instead of punishing the blasphemers, believers are advised to leave the company of such people until they change the topic of their conversation. Allah says:​
    when you hear the Signs of Allah being denied and mocked at, sit not with them until they engage in a talk other than that; for in that case you would be like them… (Ch.4:V.141).​
  2. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    Uh yeah, they do mass murder over there, and lots of it.
  3. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    Comparing an occasional lone violent wingnut to the systematic violent Islamic riots isn't even apple to oranges, more like apples to asparagus.

    A French paper just released some Mohamed cartoons, so go ahead and tune in to CNN or Fox and watch me being right some more. ;)

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/19/world/europe/france-mohammed-cartoon/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
  4. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    These all have to do with wealth, and the lack of it. You damn betchya it would be as bad here, if we were as POOR here on a per capita basis as they are over there. We are not immune from that stuff, but we are sufficiently buffered by our aggregate weath in the US. Even Whiskas is far better off than his opposite numbers in Libya, Tunesia and Egypt.

    You'll find this is true everywhere, including Mexico (where the mass violence has not escaped your notice, I trust), Columbia (where fighting with the FARC still hasn't ended), Africa (the non-Muslim parts), or even Northern Ireland (where you'll notice the violence abated by sheer coincidence, when the Celtic Dragon roared to life, and there were suddenly JOBS in Ireland! It will be interesting to see if the peace holds, now that Ireland is spiraling back into it's previous impoverished state.)

    Historically speaking, all the bloodiest non-muslim violence has stemmed from situations of extreme poverty, such as the Kristallnacht starting the rise of the Third Reich, or the bloody aftermath of the French Revolution. Or the rise of the Bolsheviks after the Russian Revolution, which culminated in the rule of Stalin. I just can't let you get away with blaming the WRONG THING for the violence we observe, just because the media loves to feed us these images to drive their ratings... ;)

    Once again, these systematic riots are fueled by deep seated anger that is already festering against us, and are being lit by groups doing power plays against other groups in these Countries, and these groups are SMALL, especially when compared to the groups you saw during the Arab Spring. Sure the group that does that one time, will do it again for a similar provocation, but since that isn't what we're arguing with each other about, it isn't a measure for "Proof of Theory Correctness". ;)

    Indeed, I think the one wrong turn you are making is labeling Islam with the brush that should really only be used against it's hard-line, fundamentalist branch, which can be compared to those weird polygamist communities that are offshoots of the Mormon faith. That group would have never grown beyond a bunch of bandits in the desert, except that Britain, in the search for oil, helped the "House of Saud" overthrow the Caliphate in alliance with these Wahabists, which gave them an official place in Saudi government, and spread it's influence through Madrassas. It is nothing less than Foreign intervention that has caused these very riots that you are seeing, and the mindset behind them. In a very literal sense.
  5. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    The french cartoons will definately ignite some shit. BTW, I'm not destitute or even poor. It's a matter of putting my eggs in a basket other than capitalism. My time on earth is spent
    for me, not some fat ass sitting in an office amassing wealth from my sacrifice.
  6. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    I'll answer this question with a question of my own. How many people died today in Iraq from shootings, bombings, etc. They are blowing up their own people on a regular basis and you are questioning if they are peaceful?

    They consider us infidels and we will always be infidels to them.

    A freaking Qu'ran gets burnt and all hell breaks loose.

    We need to stop bending over backwards for these yahoo's and we need to drill for our own oil so we don't have to rely on them for anything.


    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444450004578002010241044712.html
  7. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    You question once again evades my point that it is not ISLAM that is doing that, but the dysfunctional REGION of devout poor people led by power seekers that are doing that, and that you can have this level of dysfunction, killing each other, and riots WITHOUT ISLAM! Just ignore the Rwandan genocide, or the mass murder and rape of "The Lord's Army". They're not Islamic, but they were poor, and in dysfunctional regions of the World. Ignore all those Muslims who follow Islam who are the vast majority, that you NEVER SEE on the television, even in those dysfunctional regions.

    Ignore them, because it's inconvenient for you to treat them individually, instead of building an edifice of "Violent Islam", and stuffing everyone into that edifice whether they fit or not. "A few thousand people protested violently, so they must be violent because of Islam!" "An attack during a protest killed several Embassy personel, so all protesters must be out to kill us all!"

    What I am protesting vehemently in this thread, is the ridiculous over-reach of conclusions, based on a media skewed snapshot of what's really going on.

    I am jumping up and down, while violently waving my arms around, which is hard to do, when one is seated at a desk and typing! :D
    Sparky says thanks for this.
  8. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    You aren't getting anywhere because you don't speak from your gut. You use logic and facts and people like bam rely on what the images on tv tell him.

    He points to a region of the world as proof that his views are right but doesn't do the research to understand what he's looking at.



    Just as an aside: can anyone think of any countries or societies that weren't violent after they had an oppressive ruler removed and suddenly found themselves free people? Hell, does anyone's know of a society that gained its freedom via peaceful means?
  9. Sparky

    Sparky ¿sdooɥʍ

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    [​IMG]
  10. smirnoff

    smirnoff Curmudgeon

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    Canada.

    While you guys did the whole "war of independence" thing we sat back and let the Royal umbilical cord shrivel up, die, and eventually fall off.

    Same result, more or less. It just took longer. :D

    Canada: a country born of patience.
  11. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Canada can thank the US for their freedom;)

    India? I'll give you that one.

    But both of those I think are the exception and not the norm.

    There may be a correlation of independence gained from non violent an violent means based on whether or no people are being occupied by a foreign entity or by a native one.
  12. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    Devils advocate ( big "what if" here) :
    what if there exsists an situation where hardline, heavy handed governance via military and/or religeon be what it takes to
    control the people of that region given the violent history of it's people?

    Kinda putting the shoe on the other foot. Chicken-or-the-egg thinking here. Which came first? heavy iron fisted government, or domestic violence of the religeons?
  13. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    Fixed! :p



    Oh yeah, I agree with this statement 100%. People like Mubarek and Gaddafi were necessary to keep these animals in line.
  14. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    Once again, they are people. Not animals. The first step to talking one's self into fighting and killing another human being, is to deny their humanity. But by that logic, Mubarek and Gaddafi were themselves animals, doing exactly what all the other animals were wanting to do; being the alpha animal of their territory.

    How images affect our moral choices.
  15. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    Goofus, I get where you're coming from on all of this. But the "people" who dragged our ambassador's mutilated body through the street were animals. And Mubarek and Gaddafi were zookeepers.
  16. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    Dehumanizing a population would mean that those individuals do not act like humans. That may just be a compliment to those seeing as how
    humans are naturally so dang disfunctional as a whole. ;)
    Look at animals, they don't go around killing each other in the name of commerce, profit, and religeon. They don't really do anything without a purpose.
  17. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    Peaceful - Free from diturbance; tranquil.

    Synonyms - quiet, pacific, peaceable, calm, placid, tranquil.

    Islam is not a peaceful religion for the mere fact of how they have treated women over there and continue to treat women as well.

    In Saudi Arabia I know for a fact that a woman isn't even allowed to drive herself somewhere. I know this because I went to a school about a year ago with a guy from the middle east and he acted like it was a new concept to him.

    His answer was something like "why would a woman drive herself somewhere? That's my responsibility."

    Peace is more than just war and violence.
  18. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    In that case, the people who urinated on corpses were animals too. Do we not also need a zookeeper? :rolleyes: Facetiousness aside, I just refuse to dehumanize people just because sometimes they do bad things in groups. What they did is bad, but Mubarek and Gaddafi were part of the problem rather than the solution. They were just a lid on a runaway pressure cooker with no relief valve. Of course they got blown off, just as the Shah before them, and after that, the situation is always worse than it was before, with only groups who survived in that pressure cooker left, hardened and radicalized by their long fight in the pressure cooker. It is these folks that you are seeing, with family members who were tortured by the Mubareks and Gaddafis, and who blame US for that, and who only know how to respond as if they were still in the pressure cooker they lived in for so long. The film is just a spark to that deeply seated anger at us, and the corpse dragging is just a visceral emotional release of deep anger, which is no different than the release of anger of soldiers who have no clue from where they will be shot, and who pee and defecate on corpses as a result.

    To deal with this, we need to deal with it in a much less emotion-laden frame of mind. Part of it is to harden embassy defenses, and another part is to let the protests go on... and on, and on, until everyone gets tired of the routine. Part of it is to talk with the folks on the other side of the cultural divide, till we understand their mindset and they understand ours, so we can figure out how to deal with each other without constantly stepping on landmines by accident. We also need to understand the many fragments out there that we tend to lump into a single patchwork quilt that we call the "Insert Nationality of Choice Here".
  19. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    Lol, they give the the country right next door to where we are fighting a war and you are like "well that was a fluke."
  20. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    Canada basically gained their freedom from because England learned from their mistakes with the Colonies in the US. So I guess you could say that we won their freedom for them, though I don't know how one could categorize the War of 1812 as helping or hurting in this regard...

    I'm just glad that our Canadian friends have forgiven us for our attempts to annex Canada back then.
  21. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    The world needs people like you Goofus - calm, compassionate... But eventually the time comes for a person like myself, and B-52 bombers, and napalm. It's like those clueless parents that I see counting to 3 when they're kids are misbehaving. Violence solves problem, and in the case of the Middle East the spankin' should come in the form of air strikes. :D
  22. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    I'm sure those rioters are saying the exact same thing about us! ;) Let's stick with the drone strikes. They're much more cost effective than general airstrikes.
  23. JZL

    JZL Ministry of Whack

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    Saw this and had to throw it in. Discuss . . .

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_...bya-consulate-attack-dares-govt-to-arrest-me/

    Pressed on the matter, Boukhatala said the U.S. deaths were a tragedy, but claimed they were due to a lack of understanding between the U.S. and Libya over the crude film mocking Islam's Prophet Mohammed.​

    The attackers, he said, were just ordinary people.​

    "Ordinary people armed with rocket propelled grenades?"​

    "Yes," he responded.​
  24. Commissar Smersh

    Commissar Smersh 2020 Staff Member

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    Dem kids need discipline!
  25. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    See? This is the shit I'm talking about. There's no room for compromise with "people" like this. Some other, unrelated person says something offensive, and so it's justified to murder people.