Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by -=Lurker=-, Jan 19, 2009.
Day 1, Obama is working to close Gitmo.
We are off to a good start.
Um, 90% of these guys face the death penalty when they return home. just saying...
That's not justification for what we have done to them and that's not a good enough reason to keep them locked up.
So where do you guys plan we put all these gentlemen?
Gitmo war crimes court halted at Obama request - Yahoo! News
Not saying it's right to keep them there indefinitely but where do they go?
they get tried in a fair court of law, and sentenced if found guilty. Just because they were involved in heinous acts, doesn't mean they don't deserve equal and fair treatment by our justice system.
If they don't get the death penalty, I assure you regular prisons would take care of it pretty quick.
The poor staffers!
New staff find White House in tech Dark Ages - Washington Post- msnbc.com
Well, the trouble goes back to these being non-government groups waging war against our country. If we were in a declared war with a nation or nations, the rules related to their treatment would be well defined. But no, these groups are just supported by enemy nations. It's a loophole that they are exploiting to keep us from crushing them utterly. It's no different than Hamas shooting at the Jews from civilian areas. They know that in an open battlefield they would be doomed. I simply don't understand why people get so outraged when the rules of war are not applied to those who do not obey the rules of war!
Anyway, they exploited the Geneva convention to suit their needs and we did likewise. I don't disagree with anything that was done at Gitmo, just the poor nature in which it was handled. A thorough interrogation, followed by a swift military trial, and then execution, federal prison, or rendition to their country of origin. That's what should have happened.
Frankly I don't think they should have ever been shipped over here in the first place. I'm sure Egypt or similar would have been happy to do the dirty work for us, silently and out of the public eye. And waterboarding would have been the least of their worries, believe me.
You do know what has happened under Bush, right?
So lets break this down.
Someone who we say was going to be involved in 9/11, the event that started this whole damn thing, CAN'T BE PROSECUTED BECAUSE WE TORTURED HIM.
This is coming from a Bush administration official.
The justice that should have been given out to this man who really IS a threat, will never happen, BECAUSE WE TORTURED HIM.
Does it make you feel good that we can't dole out justice for a REAL terrorist because we participated in INJUSTICE?
Are people starting to see why torture is not only wrong, it doesn't work?
Whether or not torture works depends on what you intend it to do for you. If the threat of torture is meant to strike fear in the hearts of your enemies then I'd say it's pretty damn effective. Or maybe it's just does punitively, to physically hurt them. It would be super effective in those cases as well. Is it just, or right? Hell no.
But anyway, we actually do agree on this point. I'm glad that Gitmo is closing. Should have happened a long time ago.
Torture strikes ANGER in the hearts of enemies. It's not effective in that sense at all. Most "strike fear in the hearts of enemies" solutions, as far back as history can recall, have failed at their intent, because the rage is greater than the fear.
Israel is going to have to deal with this facet of human nature, after their stupid campaign in Gaza. They gained nothing in terms of stopping rocket attacks, while fueling frustrated rage among those who formerly wanted peace, that Hamas will use for recruitment to militancy.
This is why I think that Obama's strategy makes more sense for America. We can only defend what we stand for, if we actually STAND FOR what we stand for. No "lying, cheating, and stealing, for Truth, Justice, and the American Way."
In combat zone, coercion technique works very well. They dont always mean physical damage, some time its doing damage to what they hold precious to them that works. Its not used to spread fear but extract information/intel. Right or wrong is some thing people have invented based on there feelings. Contrary to popular believes, in fields its a very very effective mean of acquiring information (as long they posses the information). You not suppose to leave them breathing after you extracted information.
The US prob with torture in Gitmo is they let matter get out of hand. But not using professional will cause that problems. Matters like that need to be remove ASAP with highest degree of efficiency.
As for the prisoners now that Bush is gone. I am sure other countries will offer to help by taking some prisoners in there prison system. We should not bring any high risk prisoner within our borders at all cost. If we get force, we should neutralize them outside and end the matters there. There is no need to waste resources.
Torture doesn't work for getting information either. It's sole purpose is to break the will of the torture victim. You can get whatever you want out of a coerced subject, even using methods that are legal in the US. Again, I point to the New York "Wilding" case, where false confessions were extracted from several teenagers. "Possessing information" is a loaded phrase, since they may not have "information" that you are trying to get out of them, but they'll be motivated to tell you anything they think you may believe.
True professional interrogators will tell (and HAVE told) that the surest way to get true information is to build a relationship between the interrogator and the interrogatee. Otherwise, you just have people acting on "intel" that happens to be wrong.
Bad intel can lead to events such as (paraphrased from Wired for War) the killing two houses full of families instead of Chemical Ali, with two 500 lb laser-guided bombs, guided by a predator drone, piloted by folks in Las Vegas. The operators in Las Vegas congratulated themselves that they got Chemical Ali, after seeing a body thrown like a rag-doll from the bomb site. So, on the battlefield, soldiers can convince themselves that acting on intel is a success even if it's a total failure, just because how things look fit their preconceptions of what things should look like.
I'm not sure exactly what Israel was doing in Gaza either, but I think the UN was just as much a target as Hamas was. I heard on the BBC the other day that the UN has been running the day-to-day, social service type stuff in Gaza for months... WHAT THE FUCK? Hamas is in charge, they were elected, it is their responsibility to provide basic social services and infrastructure. So the UN has been doing their job for them, freeing them up to fire rockets and otherwise persue other things. It's outrageous, and well beyond the bounds of what the UN is supposed to be doing. Peace keeping, humanitarian aid, etc. Simply outrageous.
Your right. We should find them all a safe place to get on with their life. Maybe give them some free education or skill training...free flight lessons perhaps
Well the truth is if we did positive things like supporting education and job training they wouldn't hate us the first place, they would probably on our side.
LOL They hate our western culture. Period.
No they don't, they don't care about our culture. They hate our political, economic and military presence in the world.
There are dozens other western cultures not very different from ours, and most of they are not getting attacked.
Some of them are better locked up somewhere.
Ex-Gitmo detainee reportedly gets al-Qaida role - Guantanamo- msnbc.com
Terrorist freedom day! I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see what happens next with our new president.
Ok a few things here. Name at least 3 people that YOU think are "REAL" terrorists Fiddy. Can we keep them? I'm guessing you don't think anyone is a terrorist.....just guessing. Oh and by the way......torture DOES work.
That's completely wrong......you have to know that! Why am I even bothering responding to this is beyond me?!
I'd have to side with Tac (howdee, by the way, Tac). Every "western" society seems to be an object of jihad now. They hate us for what we believe anfd have "condemned us (western civilizations) to death" and the focus of jihad. The fact that we're over there "in thier face", just serves to piss them off more, but they'd still be jihad-ing us for what we believe
: freedon of speach, freedom of religeon, separation of church and state,
life , liberty, and the pursuit of happyness, our constitution and capitalism.
I start to wonder about the word "terrorist" though. It's too arbitrary. The way it has become, that word can be put on what history would look back and call a "patriot". No matter what label ever gets put on me, I'm a patriot. I love this country and when I see shit happen, I'm going to yell out: "look over at that! There's shit happanin' right there!!!!" . It's my duty to make sure that being able to have the freedom to call BS on something, never becomes reason to be labeled "terrorist".
But yeah, where our troops are at and what we do on foriegn soil, has n't that much to do with the jihad, because they hate our way of living and our beliefs and feel/preach that it's OK to kill us for what we believe and want out of life.
As far as my personal experience goes. They didn't hate us for our freedoms in US (no saying all of them). They hate us because we interfere in there way of life, directly and in directly. Just recently we did air strike in Pakistan. There protest wasn't about our freedom but was more about, we went in sovereign nation and hit the land of that nation without opening or informing any level of communication on diplomatic level. Offcourse its a strategical action, but you cant expect civilians of other nation to understand that. If that happen to US, people will be just as much outraged.
They hate us because despite as we claim we have so much power. When it comes to resolving certain issues on international level we tend to be very unfair. And in long run the fallout from that is what cause more problems. There are alot of other reasons i came to understand, when working with foreign armed forces. Our ignorance is another problem. The min we look down on some one the min we disregard someone's idea or opinion without giving it a single thought. We give birth to contradiction. Granted we cant solve the world's problem. That is exactly why we need to stop claiming we are going to police the world. Because we are held responsible for good and bad in areas we directly/indirectly effect. Since there is more bad then good we get blame very quickly for it.
True, and, at this time with our economic calamity, we cannot afford to "police the world". There is alot I do not agree with that the USA is involved in. While I agree that commerce is a good thing, it has run amok in the USA and has created a situation where, to perpetuate the current level of 'run-amokness' we have to screw with the whole world. I don't believe for a minute that the rank and file peoples of the world
have the animousity for others beliefs and actions that the political powers of the world have. When politics get involved, the citizens of planet Earth suffer. Myself I do not strive to be rich, Being "rich" is an addiction, there's never going to be enough of anything. The USA has proven this. I would prefer (and i know I'll get alot of shit for this)
that all people had the exact same security, health, oportunity, and well being. by 'all people", I mean every single man, woman and child living on this planet. I would gladly live a simple, mediocre life if it meant everyone had equal lives too. Greed is a dissease
and the cancer of humankind. From greed comes all forms of selfishness and needs to manipulate anything to perpetuate that "me-first" shit. The world imagined in 'Star Trek'? You can't get there from here. This cancer the human specieshas, is the end of the species eventually. I just hope we don't do too much damage to the planet before we inevitably end the existence of our species.
I'll cede that the main reason they hate us is because we interfere with their way of life. The trouble is that if we are present and living our lives the way we like then we are interfering with them! Honestly, there are Muslims all over the world and if there are non-Muslims within arm's reach of them doing anything forbidden in their holy book then they get bent out of shape and start killing. If they had religious tolerance it would be fine, but in general they don't (speaking of the extremists of course). And so it has become and will stay bloody battle of ideology.