Can we do anything about Welfare ?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by integra00, May 26, 2012.

  1. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    "And I'd argue that you are wrong and have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. "

    Wow, really mature.

    "If you on the other hand, think providing health care to its citizens because they are currently being set back (guess what was the number one factor in bankruptcies used to be) is a bad thing and doesn't help keep this country not only competitive but also relevant, well then I'd guess you are of the baby boomer generation."

    Wow, I am just an insensitive jerk that doesn't care about anyone.
  2. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    No I just think you are easily scared, easily manipulated and lack foresight (just based on your comments). I could be wrong but so far I haven't seen anything to indicate anything different.
  3. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    You are going to need to use ALOT bigger words to easily scare, manipulate and effect me buddy! :)
  4. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Like communism?
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  5. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    It's a lot bigger than the 4 letter words you use.
  6. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    I could use bigger words but you wouldn't know what they meant anyway (like the word communism). Please prove me wrong.
  7. Commissar Smersh

    Commissar Smersh 2020 Staff Member

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    How does universal healthcare move our society towards an authoritarian, one party Ogliarchy masquerading as a workers' utopia?
  8. bigwill51534

    bigwill51534 Saint, Church of Ryanism

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    In what way will this keep our country competitive and relevant? Yes, we are providing Medicare and Medicaid. Yes, it is being abused by many people all over the world. But, is the answer to just provide it to everybody? This is only causing an increase to every business for whatever service/product they provide. Do you think they will willingly pay that increased cost? Nope. It will be passed on to every person that buys their products.

    Also, you are involving far more middle-men in our everyday medical needs. Do you think everyone that will be involved is working for free? How about all of the government agents/employees that will provide oversight to the entire program? You are increasing the cost of the service exponentially. Do you think that doctors will provide a better service when they know that they get paid no matter what quality of work they do? It removes all incentives for doctors to provide effective and competitively priced services. The services rendered will be of lower quality, at a slower pace, and the costs will increase ridiculously. Just look at Canada as a comparison. There is a reason that many Canadians cross the border into the US to get their health needs met.

    Why should we be required to give our money to the government to use as they see fit, when we can spend it ourselves more intelligently and with less waste? I agree that this is not a move towards communism, but is definitely a move towards a more socialistic approach to government. It is as if the government believes that every problem can be solved by more government involvement and control. We are essentially pooling everybody's money together in an attempt to provide healthcare to everyone. I hate to tell you, but this is in no way going to work out for the better of the general public.

    ~Will Courtier~
  9. smirnoff

    smirnoff Curmudgeon

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    Not a response to anything said so far, just a comment: I would entertain the idea of having an application for pregnancy. Applying for the application would be like applying for a loan from the bank. Prove you have a job, prove you have a home (or other assets) to borrow against, prove your existing children are well taken care of, prove you have a back up plan in case something happens (life insurance, willing god-parents, etc), and then prove you can answer this quiz correctly. Every subsequent pregnancy requires a new application. Also, applications cost $1000, a small ammount of which covers the paperwork and administrative costs, the rest goes to Mars reasearch to find room for all your damn kids (or something).

    Only pregnancies approved by the system would be eligible for welfare. In my mind this would curb the situation that exists now, where people know what benefits are coming to them BEFORE they have kids. Welfare isn't plan C or even plan B, it's plan A! It's not helping people who run into hard times, it's encouraging it!

    Ugh, it's so twisted. It's the worst run insurance system ever.

    What about pregnancies that occur outside of the law? Fines. Penalties. Loss of certain rights. Forced vasectomy & tube tying. Genital tattoos that say "out of service". Etc.

    I'm just entertaining these ideas but I thought I'd put 'em out there.
  10. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    I say we let anybody who wants to have a child have one. I don't want to limit anyone's rights. But with rights come responsibilities. Don't ask me to feed and cloth your child, or pay your medical bills. But yeah, if I'm paying the bills I get to call the shots. IQ testing, employment requirements, forced sterilizations for rule breakers, etc. You can't have it both ways.
  11. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Right now the burden for health care is on businesses and it has been increasingly burdening the average joe exponentionaly. How does a country move ahead if it's workers cant move up? It doesn't and only the rich get richer. Without a consumer middle class what do you think will happen to businesses when demand gets so low? They will either make cheaper goods, lay off workers, or take their business elsewhere, all of which means America (and by America I mean it's people not the corporations that come from America) will become less relevant in the world market which also lessens our global influence.
    By removing that burden and no longer having businesses provide for health care and giving citizens access to health care you get a more empowered citizen as well a citizen who can now feel comfortable spending money again.
    Of course health care isn't free but will be paid via taxes from a very large pool (businesses and people alike).
  12. bigwill51534

    bigwill51534 Saint, Church of Ryanism

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    I have to disagree with you. Although the businesses arrange and setup the employee's healthcare in many businesses, the cost is still charged to the employee in one way or another. It is also the employee's choice to accept healthcare or to deny it, as it should be.

    You also did nothing in the way of arguing your point. If all middle class citizens are provided healthcare, it will in no way encourage a level of comfort that promotes spending. The cost of services and products will rise, meaning there will be less money in the general populace. This increase in costs will not affect the upper class, but will drastically affect the middle and lower classes. If any more strain is placed on the lower and middle classes, the whole economic system will collapse. This increased cost will also be another hurdle for small businesses to overcome (as if there aren't enough already), which will drastically hurt the chances of any person being able to start their own business. Our social structure is based upon small businesses building the wealth of middle and lower class citizens by providing services to the upper class. We need to promote small businesses and create an environment that they can succeed without all of the government red tape and involvement.

    ~Will Courtier~
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  13. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    That would be socialism. What we have now is something more of a house-of-cards-ism. The rich get richer poor get poorer until it hits a tipping point, then it all collapses and we start all over.
    This is the new "better deal". It applys to finance, health care and every aspect of living here.
  14. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    So what you are saying is that socialism and communism have nothing in common?
  15. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    The consequence of universal and effortless food, shelter, and medicine should be obvious to anyone with a grasp on causality and human nature.
  16. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    There are many democratic societies that successfully embrace and impliment socialized medicine. canada for one. The only reason we can't do it here is because big corporations are running the show and won't be compatible with not-for-profit medicine.
  17. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    Canada is Canada is Canada. We are not Canada.

    California. ... People QuickFacts California USA; Population, 2011 estimate : 37,691,912: 311,591,917


    Population of CANADA
    • 2010 – 34,149,200 (Est.)
    • 2011 - 33,476,688 (Enumerated numbers for 2011 census)
    • 2012 - 34,890,000 (Est.)
    Canada can fit into California. Canada = Apple American = Orange.
  18. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    Here is some insight for you; the upper class consists of about 20% of the population, the upper class doesn't buy a majority of the products of goods and services provided by small businesses or large businesses. Your statement is a joke and completely without merit.
  19. ivwshane

    ivwshane We are all old school!

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    When China gets universal health care what will your excuse be then?

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  20. bigwill51534

    bigwill51534 Saint, Church of Ryanism

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    My statement is a joke? What would you base that upon? In the tree industry (from my business) and from the businesses run by my father-in-law, this is the exact truth. NO business wants to have to worry about getting paid. NO business wants to have their prices bartered down until they barely make a profit. That is why the service industry has focused towards getting customers of higher income statuses. We know they have the money to pay for the services we provide, and we know that upper class communities are pretty tight knit. We have done well over $9,000 worth of work in a single neighborhood just based upon one neighbor seeing us help another and so on. Those are the jobs that keep us going, Not the customer that bitches and complains about us charging $400 to climb a tree and remove some dangerous hanging limbs. Not the customer that hires us, then claims they don't have the total amount we agreed upon. Not the customer that only has the money for us to do $150 worth of work 5-6 times (making $100 total profit after wasting gas on each trip).

    I would highly recommend that you get a clue on the real world before you continue making these statements. You notice that there aren't a whole lot of people in agreement with you on this. Either you are very well insulated from the general population, or you are living in some sort of a dream world. It's not a good precedent to claim the opinions of others are invalid. You haven't exactly proven anything aside from the fact that you are a judgmental imbecile that would rather throw personal attacks vice proving a point.

    ~Will Courtier~
  21. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    I hope China is dumb enough to do this. Then we will see the implosion of the biggest solicialist country on the planet.
    hope
  22. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    Labels are part of the political peeing contest that passes for "debate" in these times. :) The reason things go on as they already are, is because whenever anyone tries to change anything, the push-back is so enormous that they give up or pile up in a legislative logjam as 100 different ways of doing fifty mutually opposing solutions fail to get any majorities.

    I am so on both sides of the fence, when it comes to reform. I don't really think that private enterprise can do it better, since my dealings with any form of phone support where they are not getting money from me, tends to be a disaster fully equal to any government bureau-shuffling I've been subject to. Taking folks off Welfare isn't going to be any kind of instant cure, since that money will just go straight into the prison system, as the illegal methods of obtaining money replace the government dole-outs.

    As for the Farmers, I don't blame illegal immigration, or American unwillingness to do the work, so much as I blame the long-standing divorce of Society from it's own food production. We don't think about where the food on the supermarket shelves came from, and we don't think about where the trash and poop go when it leaves. Farm jobs are like purple elephants to modern American City/Suburb dwelling Citizens. Also, the sort of work that farming requires, needs much physical training before the average modern American can endure it long enough to make a living off of doing it, and the workers are in the City, while the work is in the Country. The City workers haven't learned at a young age how to do this labor. The Farm employers have been using immigrant labor as an easy substitute for training and conditioning Americans to be able to do the work. Just throwing us weaklings into a field and saying "harvest that!" isn't going to work very well.

    I can think of one reform that could help solve this problem, by offering college grants to highschoolers who go out and do farmhand work for regular farmhand wages, and offer free medical education to those who perform rural general practice medicine after they graduate. An adaptation of the German Socialist method of "You're unemployed. Here's a job. Do it." as a substitute for Welfare could work too.

    Really, the entire original rational for Welfare no longer holds true, as Parents generally both work anyway, so the old adage of the stay-at-home Mom needing money to support her children, no longer has the importance that it used to.
  23. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    I too would like to see China try universal healthcare. But unlike us they're actually in a financial position to do it right now. A better healthcare system is of course a great idea, but I just question the logic of attempting something of this magnitude during the worst financial climate since the Great Depression.
  24. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    This is what started me falling out of "like" with President Obama, when he veered off into the Health care morass instead of holding to his "we'll keep trying things till something works." words on getting the economy back on track. I'm frustrated because I tend toward practical fiscal conservatism and regulated free markets. Fiscal responsibility means cutting spending and raising taxes. Do either one alone, and you will just be pandering to your electorate without being truly fiscally responsible. We've enjoyed the fruits of many decades of living off credit, and now we have to pay those bills while eating instant ramen instead of Foie gras. Nobody is willing to share the pain of this, since actually sharing the pain will mean REAL PAIN of the "dislocated the shoulder of my life, and now I have to bear the weight of other's irresponsibility with that very arm!" level. The electorate all thinks that this or that group should bear the burden of dislocation, while they themselves are merely... uncomfortable, but largely unchanged. To top it off, the fiscal conservatism in the US seems to have somehow been yoked to the Social Conservatism that I despise. I'm just waiting for the first case of Missouri's new religious freedom law to reap the law of unintended consequences, as some wiccan somewhere leads a school in a "prayer" involving a robe of virgin wool, a bucket of consecrated water, and a straw broom, as he prays to the Guardian of the North, West, East, and South, or an Imam leads a class in praying toward Mecca...
  25. Greatbam

    Greatbam Junior Member

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    They are in the financial position to do this? Have you been to China? Do you know their Gross Population? How about there GDP? Might want to look at that before you start giving everyone free healthcare.

    Like I said before I am more than for China to be the pioneers on this. It would cause the overthrow of their socialist regime and would just give more evidence how dumb of an idea universal healthcare is.