A new age of reason beginning?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by MSP, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    OK, so he flipped over some tables, etc. But his message was one of peace. Compared to the koran, which is extremely violent.
  2. HEAVY-D

    HEAVY-D Eh?!

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    I find it hard to believe the message of anyone claiming to be born from a virgin.
  3. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    He "drove out" the money changers and sellers, AND he flipped over some tables and stools. If you can think of a way of "driving out" a larger crowd of people than your own without violence, please inform me. While I am being lighthearted, the point of the fact that Jesus did at least one time use violence isn't a joke.

    Also, the flipping over of other's property in an aggessive manner, is itself violence, is it not? If I flipped over lawn tables and lawn chairs while yelling "moneychanger!" or "den of thieves!" on your front lawn, would you think "Meh. This guy's not violent." ? ;)
  4. ThatHideousStrength

    ThatHideousStrength Junior Member

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    hmmm, i don't really care about Islam, Christianity is all i see in America and it's sad.

    MSP, are we supposed to discard the old testament, it's part of Christianity.
  5. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    ^^^ I dunno. But I thought that in the new testament there was talk about putting the old testament aside, or something along those lines. Seems like it's the fundamentalists that seem to focus on it so much. And the Catholics, well they just make up new shit all the time. :)
  6. demonizeZ

    demonizeZ Junior Member

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    I am not one to defend any religion... Will you be interested in giving where in Quran, those things are written. Dont get me wrong, i have read the whole thing few time, and my conclusion of Quran is that its one of the book that has alot of compassion at the same time alot of strictness in how one should conduct him/her self. To live a honourable peaceful life. Offcourse there are people who distorted the real meaning of Quran. Just like there are people how distorted the true meaning of Bible.
  7. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    Yes. It's not the book, but the ones reading the books, which are the problem of all Religions!
  8. Commissar Smersh

    Commissar Smersh 2020 Staff Member

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    Don't disagree with organized religion being the issue as the common denominator is man.

    However, I know you're saying that flipping tables is a form of violence and within many churches it is seen as the humanizing element of Christ but they (and I) view it as an act of frustration rather than aggression. Even setting aside his divinity in this case, think about the kind of charisma and persona a man would have to have to convert those adhering to age old beliefs (Judaism), those living in excess (the Romans) and those from all walks of life. I'd imagine any of his actions or words are going to carry greater weight than an unknown individual especially because at this point he's already known in the area as a preacher thus would likely not have had an issue clearly the temple when his demeanor is out of character.
  9. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    He did more than flip tables. He also "drove the moneychangers out of the temple" It was a riot, pure and simple. And this riot was the reason he was arrested by the Romans (who took a VERY firm line on civil unrest), rather than being tried by the Sanhedrin as an internal matter.
  10. Commissar Smersh

    Commissar Smersh 2020 Staff Member

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    Posting here instead of images thread because it fits:

    [​IMG]
  11. HEAVY-D

    HEAVY-D Eh?!

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    EDIT: I agree that the ones reading the books are a part of the problem.

    BUT books with countless errors and contradictions are also part of the problem. Which translation of the Bible are we talking about? We don't have the original books of the Bible so why are we believing this stuff. Ever hear the phrase 'garbage in garbage out'?
  12. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    All we really have to go on is the personal interpretations of dreams when you really analyze the prophesies. (any relligion)
    I tend to add a bit more credence to prophesy that is derived from the extention of events and trends to their logical conclusion
    when taking into consideration the nature of mankind to destroy itself. In the end, all recorded interpretations of any relligeous materials
    are influenced by politics.
    IE: there are those that look at OBL as a mesiah andf prophet, much the same as christians view JC.
  13. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    Of course, since the ones writing the books are just like the one's reading the books, and the ones copying the books, and the ones translating the books. I really doubt that any of us who don't know the original languages, to read the books before translation, really know what those books are actually saying...

    From listening to the video of that Bible scholar, it really sounds like a lot of stuff was added/removed/altered when "The Church" was clawing it's way to political power, and consolidation of ideologies, with attendant conflicts between ideological groups, sorted themselves out.

    Mentioning that debate video, the Youtube page has some interesting links with regard to the Gospels, and Matthew isn't looking too good in the truthiness dept! :)

    Contradictions in the New Testament

    Historical errors in the Gospels

    New Testament manuscripts

    Authorship of the Gospels and Acts

    Disputed epistles (forgeries)
  14. MSP

    MSP Haunting a dead forum...

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    Lots of sources, but the easiest for me to link to right now is HEAVY-D's video in NSFW, the thread about asking the ladies a question.

    EDIT: Here it is:

  15. ThatHideousStrength

    ThatHideousStrength Junior Member

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  16. demonizeZ

    demonizeZ Junior Member

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    I will say it again. Dammit, i hate defending religion, but more then that i hate misinformation. Its fine to hate/dislike some thing to a point you want to destroy it. But do it for the right reason with a full correct understanding of the object of hate/dislike.

    ROFL lmao... i am speech less on that young lady's selective reading of that book. That's how things get distorted man. Did you bother to check the facts, the verses she read. She read one or two sentences but never the whole passage. See people like her mess up the view on religion for people who might not know enough them self. I will give you an example using the verse she quoted.


    In the video @4:26 she quoted a verse 2:223. You can watch how she represented that verse. The whole thing goes some thing like this.

    "Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers".

    That high lighted part she left out, and for a Muslims who truly live by Islamic way there is nothing more scary then the idea of Allah is watching him/her and he will be judged for his conducts.

    Also Quran as whole is what makes up its integrity. Every thing you read in that book will some how get some level of reference back on a level where you will be reminded that there god ALLAH is always watching and you as a man/women must act honourably and in noble way.

    Those who truly follow there religion, be it Christianity or Islam can truly live a very peaceful happy life. Its when people for there convenience start to skew its word and start taking things out of context like that young lady. That's when things like religion start looking barbaric because of misinformation. But for a rational person, that just mean its time to go back to basic, abandon all prejudice and just find the fact and answer from a 0 state of mind on there own.
    braaains says thanks for this.
  17. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    Just like the holy bible. It was written to be one story. Old and new testaments first page to last. It never was meant to be a pick-n-choose proposition. As a story it's rather neat. As a study in
    human realtions as they pertain to society it's also rather cool. I just can't give a lot of trust to the book in the fact department because it has been so adulterated in the name of politics and organized relligeon over such a huge span of time. I'd be almost willing to bet, that if you were able to read and totally comprehend the original texts and compare it to what is now claimed to be the gospell, that the new stuff would resemble something a career lawyer/politician has written.
  18. -=Lurker=-

    -=Lurker=- **BANNED**

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    The Bible is not a "story" to be read from cover to cover. It's a collection of texts from the period. Some are books of law, some art/poetry, others texts directed at certain group of people, some prophecy and some gospels (first hand accounts). It is by no means a story to be read from cover to cover. that is the first thing the reader needs to understand.
  19. HEAVY-D

    HEAVY-D Eh?!

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    Food for though.

  20. demonizeZ

    demonizeZ Junior Member

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    Very well put, all holy books are like that. In order to read them and understand them, you must not forget the time they were written in and existed. There are alot of things in them that will seem odd now in our time, but were widely accepted in that time.

    Going to leave the video out it takes needless room.

    Devils advocate again...

    Isn't the whole video very subjective... To be more precise, in the beginning he talks a-lot about various things. Trying to explain how he perceive Islam and his understanding of god. But at the end, around 7:30 in the video, he gives his reason. The gist of it was, as he changed his understanding of god changed. So he question how some thing as objective as god change as he changed. So he concluded that he was the one creating god.

    So let see that from a different prospective. First he assumes that god is an objective thing... Also he thinks his view is right... But what if, he is the one lacking in knowledge. That's holding him back, to begin to truly understand the existence of god. To me from a different prospective he seem arrogant enough to think he can understand God. A being that is said to have created all and every thing, a being that hold infinite knowledge.

    So as he learns new thing he see new side of god. May be that is just a first step towards learning about God. So in what way can that guy ever think that he, with his infinitesimal life in a small world, can even being to comprehend a being that measure time in cosmological decade.

    In the end we all just try to find reason that makes us feel better about various things, what ever they may be. And those reason are based on our limited existence. With our limited senses in a world full of people who are just as lost as us and trying to figure things out.
  21. mistawiskas

    mistawiskas kik n a and takin names

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    Your relligeon is talking ;)
    It's more a textbook on how to and how not to live, in the form of a story.
    Have you ever read the whole thing cover to cover and studied it? I have for three years and it's interconnected, not just a random bunch of shit thrown between two covers and called a book.
  22. Goofus Maximus

    Goofus Maximus Too old to be this dumb!

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    Little side note. Torah and Talmud.


    The Christian Old Testament is basically the Jewish "Tanakh", which is three Volumes (lifted from Wikipedia):

    The Torah (the original book brought down from the mountain by Moses)
    1. (Bərē’shît) - Genesis
    2. (Shemot) - Exodus
    3. (Vayikra) - Leviticus
    4. (Bəmidbar) - Numbers
    5. (Dəbhārîm) - Deuteronomy

    The Nevi'im (The Prophets)
    6. (Yĕhôshúa‘) - Joshua
    7. (Shophtim) - Judges
    8. (Shĕmû’ēl) - Samuel (I & II)
    9. (M'lakhim) - Kings (I & II)
    10. (Yĕsha‘ăyāhû) - Isaiah
    11. (Yirmĕyāhû) - Jeremiah
    12. (Yĕhezqēl) - Ezekiel
    13. The Twelve Prophets
    a. (Hôshēa‘) - Hosea
    b. (Yô’ēl) - Joel
    c. (‘Āmôs) - Amos
    d. (‘Ōbhadhyāh) - Obadiah
    e. (Yônāh) - Jonah
    f. (Mîkhāh) - Micah
    g. (Naḥûm) - Nahum
    h. (Ḥăbhaqqûq) - Habakkuk
    i. (Ṣĕphanyāh) - Zephaniah
    j. (Ḥaggai) - Haggai
    k. (Zĕkharyāh) - Zechariah
    l. (Mal’ākhî) - Malachi

    And the Ketuvim
    Ketuvim (כְּתוּבִים, "Writings") are sometimes also known by the Greek title "Hagiographa" and consists of eleven books. These encompass all the remaining books, and include the Five Megillot (Five Scrolls). They are sometimes also divided into such categories as Sifrei Emet (ספרי אמת, literally "Books of Truth") of Psalms, Proverbs and Job (the Hebrew names of these three books form the Hebrew word for "truth" as an acrostic, and all three books have unique cantillation marks), the "wisdom books" of Job, Ecclesiastes, and Proverbs, the "poetry books" of Psalms, Lamentations and Song of Songs, and the "historical books" of Ezra-Nehemiah and Chronicles.
  23. -=Lurker=-

    -=Lurker=- **BANNED**

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    Yes. I have read the Bible many, many times in many different translations (KJV, NASB, NIV and NLT). I spent 3 consecutive years dedicated to studying the Bible in a live-in discipleship house. Church 4 days a week and twice on Sunday. I have given messages over the pulpit a few times.

    I wouldn't chime in on this thread if I had no idea what I was talking about.

    Sure the Bible is interconnected. There are references to the Old Testament throughout the New Testament but it's still not a "story to be read from cover to cover". If you've read the Bible like you say, you wouldn't argue that.
  24. HEAVY-D

    HEAVY-D Eh?!

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    Aren't all ideas of god subjective? All ideas of god are just that ideas with no proof or evidence. It's all about making us feel better in one way or another. That video is just one mans opinion among billions.
    Once I realized that we(man) make all gods I lost my interest in religions and their ideas of god because all of them are made up fables to sooth ignorant minds. I choose to see life as it is and not through the eyes of people living in the dark ages. There is no invisible man that lives in the sky watching over us, no after life, no satan to punish us which makes no sense if anything satan would reward us for being evil.
    We can study all the holy books all we want and you won't find god in any of them what you will find are someone else's concepts of what god is and is not.

    In other words I agree with you.

    Dealing with life is challenging and more satisfying without the need for relying on imaginary superstitions.

    How many people ask themselves why do I believe? How many people seek knowledge outside their comfort zone? How many people will take the road less traveled and look where others will not go because of unrealistic fears placed on them? How can one grow if you are unwilling to learn something new. Will you be a doormat and believe as you are told or will you go seek the answers yourself? Which are you?
  25. demonizeZ

    demonizeZ Junior Member

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    Sorry for wall of text lol...

    Interesting, lets go with that, what if the idea of god was meant to be subjective. As our knowledge grows, we learn new aspect of looking at things. Its not god that is evolving with us, its our view of god that is evolving. When you read any of the holy books, there are alot of stuff that's very ambiguous, and left for interpretation by the reader/follower. What if it was meant to be that way, so as its reader/believer evolves, so will there understanding of the holy books or god.

    In order to ask for proof of gods' existence, you need to ask your self what kind of proof will satify you?

    For you to conclude we make all gods, you have to have proof for it. But the proof is same as any one, you are trying to prove a being that is infinitely greater then you or any thing else in every way, cant exist. Because you cant understand it in our limited rational sense, or you cant see it. So isnt it arrogant to think that a being that is infinitely greater then any thing will show it self to prove some thing to people who don't even believe in its existence. People whose existence is equal to a particle of sand, in the great desert called universe (metaphorically speaking). To me that is just arrogance.

    Isn't stating that believer or religious people have ignorant mind, equally making you ignorant also. Because you also fail to understand them and assume its because, what you know is the truth over the believers/religious peoples truth. For reason like you cant rationally proof god existence, nor you can rationally disprove gods' existence. So it must not exist. Isn't the conclusion suppose to be that we just don't have sufficient data to proof any thing one way or another. Same goes for the rest of the things that you cant prove one way or another with any absolute answer for now in our limited existence. Hence our pursuit of knowledge to surpass that limitation eventually.

    Holy books never claim that gods in it. They have instructions and rules for it's follower on how to live a humble, honourable, loving peaceful life... That is inline with there god's will. And i don't think any holy book ever said that in life or trouble times, they should rely on imaginary superstitions. As far as i remember in my read of various books it stated, that you must work hard, persevere and have faith and hope. Keep your heart clean and your thoughts noble. And god will send help in the form of your own kind. Now that might not be enough for you or for alot of people; but for some that is what reinforces there believes...

    So in the end you are doing the same as majority of the people, choosing a side. That you are comfortable with. But in all rationality neither side posses the knowledge to prove or disprove the other side...


    I should say that non of what i said, is my view on things. I am simply just deconstructing and reconstructing from different point of views.